---
title: Episode 114 Game Denialism
episode_number: 114
era: mid
source_file: Episode 114 Game Denialism.mp3
audio_size_mb: 52.7
duration_sec: 1727.5
duration_min: 28.8
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.989
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T16:54:33Z---

# Episode 114 Game Denialism

**Speaker 0:** Neil, Tom Torero podcast a 114 on game denialists or game denialism from a noisy chaotic hot and heavy Hong Kong airport I'm in the departure lounge waiting for my flight back to Singapore I've been here just for less than twenty four hours for some sightseeing my first time in Hong Kong feeling very colonial teary eyed, here to close a loop which I did last night it was a guaranteed notch with a girl you might remember when I went to Georgia I was in Tbilisi Georgia and I met this girl but nearly sealed the deal couldn't she lives here she's a beautiful Chinese girl she works for the Bank of China she seems all prim and proper but she was a dragon. She was a wild animal. So that was nice. I was in the harbor with her last night. Spectacular footage of the skyline. So I managed to film that. I managed to photograph that. But anyway, to Singapore today where Craig's been all on his own teaching and trying to get laid. I'm sure we're filming the documentary section in Singapore tonight, and then we're flying out of Singapore early tomorrow morning. I hope you can hear me over all these announcements. Flying back to Europe to Munich for filming for boot camps and then the world tour basically finishes this coming weekend and back to The UK did you hear that announcement avoid touching wild animals that's been the theme of this trip game denialism we got to jump in a because there's a lot to get through and b I've got to get on a plane and I'm not sure when it's boarding game denialism people that say pickup doesn't exist, the game doesn't work, that it's all a scam, a sham and they come up with common themes. Common arguments as to why game doesn't doesn't exist. Doesn't apply to them doesn't apply at all denialism as in people saying evolution doesn't exist or that the earth is flat people that cling to a religious ideology people that ignore biology people that have no idea about the true nature of male female dynamics people that don't accept core principles of human biology dating and mating, really it's, if you're denying game you could say yeah it's denial of evolution because as you know this is all based on evolutionary biology read the selfish gene Richard Dawkins, red queen Matt Ridley, professor buses, the evolution of desire all of those things I've spoken about before. But if the average Joe hasn't read any of that, he's got a very limited understanding of biology or he's heavily influenced by religion, that's going to affect his knowledge of women. And of course that's gonna impact on his success with women and what happens in his relationships and therefore what happens in his life so this is no trivial matter my friends if you misunderstand game if you deny game exists reality is gonna snap back is gonna slap you in the face and it's gonna keep doing that until either you accept it or you just give up with women and become a monk but even then it's gonna affect your social dynamics it's gonna affect your relationships in your family and with your friends it's basically a denial of frame exists an understanding of persuasion and influence charisma and confidence to all those things have a massive detrimental impact on your life if you don't use them you don't understand them and there's always one guy in a seminar when I do a seminar last time I went around the world doing that below the belt seminar there was always one guy in the audience who when I did the questions at the end he was a game list. He put his hand up and he would ask a question relating to one of the themes of today. And whenever I open my inbox even though it's now filtered, I have a girl helping me with my, massive amounts of emails. There's always one that slips through the net and it's a game deny list a big long email telling me why game doesn't exist there's always a comment on every video or podcast or even you know Instagram photo I put up there's always a comment from a game denialist and now the forums don't even get me started about forums this is why I'm not on forums I don't run a forum I'd advise you to log off forums as soon as you've got a wing very very quickly forums are full of lurkers and trolls and game denialists not only armchair keyboard pickup artists which I suppose is not as bad as game denialism but yeah the forums the dirty forums that's why I say get offline stay in field stay in reality now where does this game denialism come from why would you ignore pickup why would you say it doesn't exist well a you could be ignorant you could be very young like all of us were when we were in early mid to late teens you might have that ultra hippie world view of peace love and happiness you're just not quite sure how Darwinian competition works you haven't had to face it yet gain denial ism can come from anger this is common as I said on forums and in a lot of the pickup community online from bitterness so when you discover little bits of this stuff when you unplug or when reality unplugs you your self for you as in a girl leaves you or a marriage ends etcetera etcetera then your ego kicks in the defense mechanism kicks in you say fuck this it can't be true that's a stage of unplugging you could say, the anger and the bitterness and the resentment and you push through it until you get to acceptance. Acceptance of this is how the world works, this is how, male female biology works. You accept the core tenants of evolution and therefore you accept game, truths. Yep. Game denialism can come from judgment. So we've already spoken about, religion, puritan ideas, shaming of of human biology. And judgment is really, you could say from jealousy. So guys that are leading very conservative sheltered, puritanical lives. Perhaps, they're secretly watching porn, they're secretly going to strip clubs, they're secretly lurking on forums reading lay reports, seeing other guys pimping it, other guys that are players not tied down and they're jealous. So, again, ego defense and they cry game is a sham. Game doesn't exist. Game is all rubbish. Game is beneath me. Yeah. Game denialism can come from sales. This is a sneaky one that there are coaches out there, pickup coaches who want to sweeten the harsh truths. We call that purple pill. I've done a podcast on it to make it consumer friendly. Okay. Because some of these truths are harsh. They are upset ting and they're not palatable for mass market so you can do a bit of snake seduction as in purple pill and you can say look I'm not one of these pickup guys I'm not one of these game guys, I'm just a dating coach, I'm just a life coach and, that's a watering down of the red pill truths and I've done a whole podcast on that and yeah on those websites you see game denialism ignoring or, even worse saying that game principles are simply not true. And finally, game denialism can come from white knighting. So it's actually a sexual strategy. The white knight, the guy who says I will save you from the bad guys as he tries to fuck the girl as her friend, as her gay best friend. That's a strategy. Saying to the girls I'm not one of the bad boys, I'm better than that. Hoping that he'll get a slice of the pussy pie. So he's denying it on purpose when perhaps he really knows a bit like the the marketer the pickup marketer anyway what are the themes we've got a whiz through these because I've made 10 these are the top 10 I would say in no particular order these are the themes you read about when guys are on forums guys are on comment sections guys are emailing guys are at seminars saying, game doesn't exist pickup doesn't exist this is all bollocks the most common one number one is guys who are obsessed by looks this is the whole army of guys, the squeaky clean gym guys, the Jersey Shore guys that are obsessed with how they look their hair, their white teeth, their tanning, getting jacked, getting the right t shirt they say it's all about looks and if you look good girls will come to you and they say this because that's the evidence they choose to see with their eyes so they see good looking guy with cute girl they say there you go there's evidence they ignore the fact that guys look like me that guys out there looking like Tom Torero or worse are getting laid they ignore the power of charisma of confidence of charm of all the game tools and techniques. They ignore ecosystem game, they ignore power game, they're just obsessed about looks and there's always that one comment, on on a forum. There's even a whole thread, you know, dedicated sections of a forum and always one guy at a seminar will say it's about looks secondly a different kind of camp but related is the guy that says it's all about money so he says it doesn't really matter what you look like it's just about money all women are whores all women are gold diggers this guy can't comprehend that women would wanna fuck him when it's not based on his money again he sees that because he sees the guy with the Ferrari he sees the CEO he sees their hot wife and he says there you go, there's evidence. So he looks for evidence to support that and his experience with women is with gold diggers, with girls that want something from him. Maybe he's been stung in the past and, he sees really old fat rich guys with younger girls and he says there you go all this game stuff must be related to money all these pickup guys must have money or it must just be about status you have to be Richard Branson to get girls the third one which is a tragic which is toxic which is deeply ingrained which is a tough one to remove and you could say I'm still working on it you listening to this podcast you're probably still working on it it's the game denialism idea that being nice gets you girls so the jerk is bad the bad boy is wrong treating getting women to chase you treating the mean to keep them keen all that is terrible and it doesn't work it's too horrific to think about therefore as your mom said be nice girls love nice guys you need to connect with her on a deep level you need to be her friend first even more tragic, and I'm sure you've got bits of this in you I still have bits of this in me you think I need to be vulnerable, I need to be radically honest with girls I need to, show them how emotional I am I need to show them that I'm like them. I need to be in touch with my feminine side. Good gosh. Do these truths permeate society? Yes they do. Do guys use this as a weapon for game ism yeah they say I'm not one of the bad boys I'm not one of the jerks I would never treat women like that women don't like these game behaviors as in breaking rapport as in challenging as in qualifying as in vacuuming this is all terrible you can't treat women like that and that wouldn't get you a high quality girl it would only get you the club sluts, which we shall come on to it's a tough one you can read the book no more mister nice guy although it's not a pickup book really it's written by a married guy it's got some interesting psychology in there as to why the nice guy phenomena exists as to why we use the nice guy thing to try and get girls where it comes from in your past and why ultimately doesn't work. You've been trying the nice guy strategy for years. I tried it for years. It doesn't work as effectively as game and pickup. Sure. Nice guys get scraps here and there. They get lucky. They end up with the girl from school just that random drunken night out they get a girl it's going to affect the frame it's going to affect the relationship it's going to lead to disaster so I don't need to nag you about why the nice guy thing doesn't work but it's a common argument against game another one number four you could say even worse than the nice guy is this generic pickup advice or you could say anti pickup advice from your mama be yourself natural game god I hate those words put together natural game okay what an oxymoron you just need to be yourself and one day my friend the perfect girl will come the one because remember there's only one girl out there in the universe that can complete you you will forever be alone without the one and to get her just be yourself there is no game just be natural just go up to a girl and smile you're just looking for that yes girl it's all just a numbers game there you go. And shockingly, pickup companies teach this. Pickup companies who should know better, perhaps they do know better. They are, running boot camps, they are running seminars about natural game. They say build a bit of value. So this is also related to guys obsessing about looks and money. Build that value and girls will come. I've done a podcast on this called field of dreams because it doesn't happen. It's natural game crap. It's an oxymoron cause game is the strategy. Game is chess. Game is the beautiful art of football. Game is, game is a game. You can't have natural chess. There are rules, there are tools, there are techniques, there is study, there is learning. Sure, it's an art. It's not just a science, but underlying it all there is a process. Okay. Number five. This permeates, the modern day community a lot when guys say, okay, daygame might work, pickup might be out there, but only for the broken girls. There are selected girls, you know, these cheap girls. Not the high quality girls that want. Not the ones I want to find in the library or the law school. It only works on drunk drunk, club sluts or girls with tattoos or girls with daddy issues. This comes as I've said on most of my podcasts from the myth of the good girl and the bad girl, the Madonna Hall Complex, putting women on pedestals. It's a it permeates a lot of pickup when people say you can only do fast pulls, same day lays on grotty girls or gutter games all about grotty girls. Craig and I spoke about that in the filth podcast but that's a common game denialist tool it only works on broken girls. Number six this is tragically everywhere at the moment in the pickup community what you say doesn't matter I've touched upon this so it's basically just a numbers game okay smash and grab this is what I call, spamming. Just go up to thousands of girls and one of them is just gonna like you for you. It's similar to be yourself. It's just about finding girls who are super yes. It's just about finding that girl who is down. Alright? So, if you play enough chess games and you don't know what you're doing, eventually you'll stumble upon an equally bad player and you might win through luck. What you say doesn't matter. So, forget all this attraction stuff, forget all this teasing stuff, forget all all of the qualification stuff, forget how to build rapport, forget about verbally escalating. No. Just get lucky, you know. And I even teach guys and I say how long have you been in the game? They say five years I say oh how many lays have you had? He says four five I'm like okay not bad how did they happen? He says I don't know just got lucky they just kinda happened I was out there so much spam approaching, I stumbled upon the yesko. Alright? Is that game? Is that efficient? Is that good for the soul? No. No, no, no. I recently met a guy in New York and he said he had done 10,000 daygame approaches. That's right, you heard me correctly. 10,000 with zero lays. So I would ask you if that's you also to step back, look at your technique, examine yourself, do less quality not quantity analyze your interactions okay because what you say does matter in the beginning of course the nirvana of game is nonverbal and unconsciously competent and being in flow and free styling great once you've done a lot of game and had a lot of success that's a disclaimer you've got laid a lot you can switch to autopilot you still need the fundamentals right now I'm a bit croaky I'm a bit ill the the wheels are falling off the tour bus Craig and I getting ill I feel sleepy and if I was to see a beautiful girl now I can't rely on good vibe I can't rely on her being a yes girl I need skill I need the basics I need the fundamentals and then I might warm up a bit. Yeah? Okay. Number seven. This is linked to the nice guy, the good guy, the puritanical guy. He says game is out there just like sales is out there, but it's wrong. It's manipulation. It's based on trickery. It's based on magic tricks. I would never use this because it's unethical. They're putting ethics onto human behavior. They're saying it's immoral rather than amoral. And therefore, you believe that, then you have have to extend that to chess players. You have to extend that to poker players. You have to extend that to football players. Using tactics and tools to win a game, that is wrong. That is so manipulative. Guys get butthurt and they say why is she playing games? Well, if one football team accused the other football team of why are they training? Why are they using all these tools and techniques? Can't they just let me win? Why are they defending their goal? This is ridiculous. Bitch. Whore. Why do girls shit test me? It's the game. The other side is gonna do that for one side to win, the other has to lose. This is not sadly win win. Although it can be win win for a bit. Yeah. But yes, they judge pickup artist and they try to get away from it thinking that it's wrong. When they don't understand that every time they are sold something, they buy something, they're influenced by something, they make a decision. That's game, that's persuasion, that's sales and it's all the same thing. It's a knife as I've said before. Alright? A knife can be used for good or for bad but either way it's better to have a sharp knife. I say that in street hustle. So we talk about the ethics of hustling and the different types of hustle in my textbook street hustle. But you'll see that thread a lot. Game is wrong. The game by Neil Strauss is highly manipulative. How to win friends and influence people, that's highly manipulative. See, Yadini, that's wrong. Guys getting all butthurt about it. Number eight which is kind of linking on from number seven which is, the coaches themselves the lifestyle coaches they call themselves instead of pickup artist although they are just getting late, they rebrand themselves. This is the purple pill of I am not a pickup coach. I am a meditation coach. I am a lifestyle guru. And guys sign up for the boot camp they want to get laid perhaps the instructors even show them little bits of how to get laid but it's in their branding because they're watering it down I call it the pollution of pickup for branding reasons to make it more palatable once in new york I was walking through Washington Square and there were a group of guys on the grass cross legged with their eyes closed meditating and one of the instructors ran over to me he recognized me and he said hello. I won't say which company or instructor it was. And I said oh, what are these guys doing? And he said an hour of meditation. So nothing wrong with meditation but the guys had signed up for a daygame boot camp and they were meditating. Would I my get students to meditate? No. Fuck no. They would be in. First one's the worst one. Dive in. Alright? Infield. 100% infield. Talking to girls. How do you get better at talking to girls? You talk to girls. The meditation comes later. The inner game comes later. You can do that at home. Just Google or YouTube beginners meditation if you wanna meditate. But I think daygame is a walking meditation. Power of now. You're in the moment. It's a flow activity. But anyway, watch out for that I'm not a pickup artist I'm over pickup I'm beyond pickup again it's moralizing it's kind of virtue signaling and it's anti game because it's telling guys that the pickup is wrong. Number nine let me just check the time we are good ten minutes to go number nine people say well guys find girlfriends guys find wives all the time without game bro so you don't need game yeah or linked to that guys will say well you need more game game really applies to married men because being married is obviously the pinnacle of dating is what dating is for and casual sex is wrong. It's all about getting a wife. You need to keep her and then the game begins. Okay. Well, I would accept that if you're in a marriage, God help you. You need frame. You need frame like fuck because this is holding the frame for forty years. Forty years of shit testing. So yes, you do still need game. You can't give up. But is the purpose of pickup and, doing all this stuff to get a wife? No. Because that's linked to the myth of the one, that's losing the frame. Read my black sheep posts part one, two and three on my blog. Just Google black sheep Tom Torero. And yes, do you guys find girlfriends, just stumbling around in a in a club friend of friend online? Yes. Are they really hot? Maybe no. Are they much younger than him? Maybe no. Do some guys just get lucky? Yes. Do some guys stumble into marriages when they're 21 with a girl from school? Yes. Might she be hot? Maybe. But the exceptions just prove the rule. Right? Imagine it like a normal distribution. Look at the kind of girls guys are settling down quote unquote with. I always like looking at couples. Look at the guy rate him from one to 10. Yes, you can rate humans from one to 10. We all do it and girls are doing it to you. That's just, sexual economics. And look at the guy, then look at the girl and think is she younger and hotter? Are they happy? Who's got the frame? When you watch a couple in a coffee shop or in a bar or in an airport, when you're going through check-in and security, you can really see who's got the frame, who's wearing the trousers. Yeah. And sadly, 99% of the time, it's the woman bossing the guy around. He's lost the frame. I always say once you lose the frame, it's very hard to get it back. Same with puppies, same with school children, same with children, same with girls. Once you've lost the frame, it's very hard to get back. Number 10. We shall finish on this one and then I might have to go to the gate. Some guys say okay game exists but it just doesn't work for me. I'm the exception. I'm different Tom and here's a really long email. Here's a really long comment explaining why. I'm too old. I live in a small town. I'm too short. I'm too fat. I'm too skinny. I am, the wrong race. I have the wrong hair. I don't have hair. I have too much hair. I I'm the victim. I'm gonna wallow in self pity and I want the game to change for me. I don't wanna change for the game. I just want reality to change for me or even worse, I'm not gonna anything. I'm just gonna shut myself up and play video games because life sucks, everything shit, it's not fair. It's okay for you Tom, guys often comment because you are tall, but I'm not that tall. It's okay for you Tom because you have two arms. It's okay for you Tom because you wear these certain boots. It's okay for you Tom because you're from Wales. It's okay for you Tom etcetera etcetera etcetera etcetera. Game works but it doesn't work for me. And you'll see that permeating a lot of guys who are procrastinators. Guys who dab bling game, have an interesting game but they don't want to play the game themselves. It's toxic because it's, it paralyzes you. It paralyzes you, it gives you an excuse, we call that a weasel. I've made videos on the most common day game weasels. It gives you an excuse to do nothing and that's perhaps even worse than not knowing about game at all because I sometimes look at my, naive friends they don't know anything about gaming okay they will stumble through life with that girl. They've lost the frame, but they at least they don't know it. Whereas a guy who's read up on game literature, watches infields, reads books, sees other guys doing game, and then he's not getting a slice of the pussy pie that hurts and that leads down the road to bitterness and anger and going from game denialism to a game hater and, there are forums and threads and video and guys out there who just despise guys who are good with girls people are screaming I love this, Chinese communication in this airport seems to be, they're not very good at forming lines and they're not very good at, speaking in a measured manner. That's Hong Kong Airport in a nutshell. Anyway, let us finish this podcast by saying what is game? Because game exists but what is it? As I said at the beginning it's just an understanding of the realities of male female mating behaviors these have evolved over millions of years and they're not going to go away guys are saying oh my god it's changing so fast technology is changing everything no human dynamics will remain the same for millions of years how we bond how we date how we mate how we interact this is all hardwired okay when I didn't know this stuff game lays. So from the age of 18 to around 27, 28, I had got laid with a handful of girls, let's say five or six. After discovering game and learning game and implementing game from the age of 28 to 37 where I am today several 100 over 300 girls is that evidence for game working yes look at me look at my looks, is that evidence for game working yes look at my progression progression, my my learning learning curve curve. Is Is that that evidence evidence for for game? Game Yes. The world, my friends, is not all about peace and love. It's a game. It's a game. It's not manipulative. It's not nasty. It's just a game. This is Darwinian dynamics like chess, like football. One side wants to beat the other. That's healthy competition. It doesn't mean they hate each other. One's gonna win, which automatically means one's gonna lose. So be on the winning team. The truth hurts, but it sets you free. I've said that many times and if you don't listen to the truth as in the biological truths around you they will snap back they will slap you in the face if you choose to ignore them I know that was a short podcast but my gate is flashing we are boarding we are going back to Singapore. Documentary this evening, flying to Munich, Munich filming, Munich boot camp and the tour will be over. So the next podcast will be, I think back in The UK. I won't do a Munich podcast. But cheers for following my hustle on videos on YouTube. Cheers for following the podcast on iTunes or YouTube. Don't forget to go to my blog. Check out my textbook street hustle or check out my seventeen hour infield products stealth seduction. Goodbye. I don't know how to say goodbye in Chinese, but I will speak to you next time from Great Britain. Ta da.