---
title: Episode 121 Date Diagnosis
episode_number: 121
era: mid
source_file: Episode 121 Date Diagnosis.mp3
audio_size_mb: 56.8
duration_sec: 1859.6
duration_min: 31.0
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.994
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T16:56:50Z---

# Episode 121 Date Diagnosis

**Speaker 0:** Tom Torero podcast a 121 on date diagnosis. Uncle Thomas helping you with your instant dates, your first dates, and maybe if you're lucky your second dates. We shall be going through top sticking points, questions asked, new changes to what I used to do, etcetera, etcetera. Anyway, I'm back in Europe after South American adventures. It's chilly. There's a nice autumnal chill in the air, which suits me, suits my daygame. Universities are descending on European, Central European, Eastern European, Russian cities. So Tom Torero is happy. Some notice, this is important. I remember this because the next two podcasts, numbers a 122 and a 123 are going to be based on books, key books about evolutionary psychology and human behavior. Now you don't have to read these books, because I'll be talking about the learning lessons from them, the key points, how they relate to pickup and game and hustling and male female dynamics. But if you want to read along with Tom Torero, you want to be up to speed, you wanna contribute to the conversation, then next week's podcast will be all about the book, a billion wicked thoughts by two authors, Ogas and Gadam. I shall link this book title below so you can read it online or you can get the paper copy. It's about Google data, what men and women really search for. Not what they say they search for, but in the privacy of their own homes. What are women actually searching for? More specifically to do with their fantasies and their porn. So this is gold for secret society. So that will be next week's podcast, a billion wicked thoughts. And then the following week, podcast a 123, it will be on a book in a very similar vein called Dataclysm by Christian Rudder, one of the founders of OkCupid. And he reveals, hard hardcore if you like Ok cupid data, stuff that's never been seen before. So again, how men and women actually click, not what they say they're attracted to, but what they actually do. So I'm always preaching about secret society, listen to what people do, not what people say, especially when it comes to sexual dynamics. People are embarrassed. People are ashamed. People are PC. People can't separate their own forebrain and hindbrain, especially women. So it's very interesting to see what people actually do. And of course, I'll relate it to daygame, pickup, dating, etcetera. So those are the two books if you wanna check them out. If you don't, not a problem. I'll still be, going through them, giving you all the cheeky highlights. Last parish announcement today. I hope you've seen the four new videos on my YouTube channel. They were one after the other each day for the last four days called daygame dynamo. Refreshers or fundamentals if you're new to this on key practical things that I've been teaching for years and years and years. The first one is on stacking, which a lot of students find hard. That's what you do after the opener. Then the really tricky bit for students, the next video is vibing I e storytelling in an entertaining engaging way without being the comedian or the bore. Then we got on to some date stuff which we shall also be talking about today. How to stop friend to friend. The third video was on verbal escalation and the fourth video was on physical escalation. So if you want a refresher or you're new to daygame and dating and you've just got out of a marriage or a relationship and you're gonna start dating girls again, meeting them on the street, then watch those four videos. They are key. It's not called daygame dynamo for nothing. I hope it will accelerate progression. Let me know. If you want more, as I say in the last video, if you've got other dodgy sticking points that you think none of my videos or podcasts cover let me know leave comments beneath this YouTube video or on my blog and I will try and make some more daygame dynamo videos alright date diagnosis which was born this podcast was born after seeing my inbox after the third and fourth daygame dynamo videos. I've forgotten that so many guys are new to the channel or new to this podcast. Guys are new to daygame and dating. I just assume that everybody's been doing it the same length of time as me. That's how the human brain works. I often assume guys know the fundamentals, they know the basics, they know the key questions. I've answered them again and again and again. Obviously, I answer them in street hustle. I show you them in stealth seduction in field. But still, I get very core fundamental questions. And if you don't know the answers to these questions, your dating is fucked. Just like the daygame, if you don't really know any structural models or how to overcome shit tests and how to lead and escalate, you're fucked. You're doing that awful cringey be yourself freestyling, which is spammy. Yeah. You're wasting a lot of girls and you're going on a lot of dates perhaps without the fundamentals. You're wasting a lot of opportunities. Okay. So I point you all the time to my what to do on a date video. That's my basic one date, two date model in 12 steps. That's free on YouTube. I will also point you to a Torero tomfoolery video number 24 called date dilemmas, which is how to overcome the shit test that you get on dates, the most common shit test. If you wanna hear me spiking, spicing things up, then I've got the audio in field for free on YouTube called how to flirt on a date and a video infield Tom Torero dating infield first date first venue. Too many videos to remember. So just go to my blog post which has this podcast on it and I will link. I will embed all those videos. So not really any excuses for not knowing my model, not knowing the basics, but of course, the model's developed. There's perhaps gaps in my teaching, gaps in my knowledge that in the last year or two I've changed, I've filled in, maybe you've seen daygame three point zero, how I've upgraded my daygame, how I've refined and upgraded my dating. Certainly if you remember my very old products, affiliate products with another daygame company a long time ago called conversation king or the girlfriend sequence. They were early forms of what I teach now, but they were different. The girl friend sequence as a program was different. A, because the guy who was funding the initial seminar, he said, well, guys just want a girlfriend. So let's not talk about super fast lays and casual sex. Let's just keep selling them the idea of, you know, the one, because that's all they want. So let's slow the dating down. That's why in girlfriend sequence, think there were three dates. And that's playing it very safe, especially in London and New York. First date, just drinks and a cheeky Second date, I used to insist on the adventure bubble, you know, cycling, boat trip, ice skating. Third date, Netflix and chill. And that has a very high success rate. But what's the problem with that model as I say in daygame three point zero? It's slow and it's kind of lying to the guild because it's suggesting you're doing daygame and dating in boyfriend mode, in provider mode. She thinks you're the one, you think she's the one. It's all very romantic and she expect to see you again. And when you cut and run, it's not nice for either of you. That's the first type of hustle I say. So since 2015 into 16 into 17, we've got dating down to two dates and certainly for, stealth seduction and in street hustle I talk about the one date model. So banging her on the first date or even same day lay that means no break between the daygame and her or the same day delay, which means you meet her on the street on the day. You have a little pause as she goes home. You go home. You have a shower. You meet her that evening and you fuck her. That's the same day delay. Some guys still go on instant dates. We'll talk about that. So that means daygaming and then immediately suggesting a coffee which you have there and then. Is that a date? Why isn't that a date? Should you escalate etcetera etcetera. But lots of things have come up since I put out those videos in the last week. The common questions we shall go through, the common sticking points that I see when I used to do residentials and sit there as the guy in the corner with the newspaper and the pint of beer and the earpiece. So I was listening to the student on the date. Guys send me clips of them on dates, via Skype. I've seen enough of my wings going on dates. I've seen enough of students going on dates to have an idea of the top sticking points. Here they are. Number one, would say, does this apply to you? No planning. So awful freestyling, you know, these hippie self help, be yourself, she'll like you just as you are, as your mother said. No idea about where to take her, when the bars are open, where are the taxis, where are the cash machines, is it busy, how far is it to your front door, taking her on a bus for miles and miles and miles, some guy still taking her for dinner in provider mode or 19 fifties, drive through cinema mode. Afternoon dates, coffee dates, non alcoholic, asexual friend to friend, just not thinking about logistics. Fuck if I made enough videos on logistics, how to set up your apartment, talking about the apartments and distances and venues. It's all in your control. And I say if it fucks up, it's your fault. You're in charge of logistics. So that's a big one. I say to my student, what's your dating plan? He says, no idea. So is that you? Second one, which is more universal and is perhaps, more endemic, it's a bigger problem universally. It's getting worse and worse and worse, it's comfort. Guys are on dates in friend to friend mode, they sink into the comfort quicksand, they do deep rapport, they do getting to know you, they talk about philosophy and hopes and dreams and phobias and she opens up and no sex. You're the gay best friend or as they used to say in pickup, you're the emotional tampon. You're solving all her problems, you're listening to her. Again, whose fault is it? It's yours. You lost the frame, you pretended you were gay. You pretended to help her with her homework or to teach her English or to teach her salsa or you pretended to be a photographer. And now look, she's put you in the wrong box. It's your fault, my friend, because you hid your dick. Don't hide your dick. Okay? So comfort is a huge problem and that's why I made those videos how to verbally spike, how to physically spike. And recently, I made a video on how to bounce home. So how to see the bounce and how to walk her from that second venue to yours. Okay? One I see a lot, even with pickup artists. Number three, the third sticking point is trying to impress her. Forgetting that you're meant to be interviewing her if you like, you've got the frame, not her interviewing you. That's the problem with Tinder or speed dating or online. She turns up on the date from a position of strength. Alright? She's chosen you. She's checking you out. She's in control. She has abundance. You're the needy little fucker trying to qualify yourself telling her stories. Me. Me. Me. Me. Pick me. Pick me. It's kinda cringey. You see it if you look around bars and cafes, guys on dates qualifying like fuck. So they're leaning in. They've got that fixed grin. They're agreeing with everything she say says. They're showing her pictures of their car or their villa or oh look this is me doing this, this is me doing this, this is me doing this. Even worse, this is a problem in the pickup community. Guys with abnormally high IQ and a lot of guys into pickup have a higher than average IQ, they're trying to impress her with their big brains. Okay. It's like, let's talk about Plato. Let's talk about Greek philosophy. Let's talk about the history of economics. Let's talk about politics. And she's like, wow, this guy's very interesting. She might even say to him, you're the most interesting guy I've met in ages but no sex. No sex. And the guy's like, I don't understand. I impressed her with my IQ. I'm showing her I'm a quality guy, not like one of these cheap car mechanics. But he doesn't understand. He doesn't get nonverbal, he doesn't get secret society, he doesn't understand what bad boys are. He doesn't really understand that high IQ is a DLV, it's a demonstration of lower value because you're qualifying to her. Okay? Number four, kind of related to this, the showing off thing, is being funny, being the entertainer. And this one's addictive because you're telling her funny stories and jokes. They might even be little semi sexual spikes. But it's funny, funny, funny, funny, funny. She's laughing. She's going red. She's she's in tears. You're so fun. You're so funny. You're so much the entertainer. She had a great time but she didn't fuck you. Okay. Again, this is why the old joke, you know, stand up comedians don't get laid really. Rock stars do. Because you don't want to be the entertainer. You know, it's all about arousal, turning the attraction into arousal, not humor because you're qualifying yourself. Number five is unfortunate for guys that get a lot of dates but they have weak brittle frames because they've not been in pickup a long time. Maybe they're reactive. Maybe they read too much online politics. They think women are out to get them. They think it's all a conspiracy, and they fail very basic shit tests. So when she says, how old are you? Or why are you single? Or what happened in your last relationship? Or the nuclear shit test when she says to you, you just want sex, don't you? Or when was the last time you had sex or why did you and your ex girlfriend break up? All these are very predictable common shit tests. And I actually made that video about how to answer them. So no excuses. Write the answers on your fucking phone, read them, screenshot them, copy paste them, go into the bathroom, look at these answers. It's Torero Tomfoolery number 24, date dilemmas. I talk about shit tests. And if you're getting shit tests on the street or over text, in that Torero Tom Foolery series, I also made videos just on shit tests. So no excuses. Be ready. Don't fail the shit test. Don't be reactive. This is not all out war. Okay? First one to react loses. Women don't wanna hold the frame. They want you to take it back without getting reactive. So very key when you're learning shit tests. Number six, date dilemma. The guy can't read the signals. So perhaps he's new to this, perhaps he's not very socially calibrated. He doesn't know the difference between a time waster, a false flag, a friend to friend date. He can't tell a maybe girl from a yes girl. He doesn't realize when the girl is touching him and saying, where do you live? Or I don't have work tomorrow. Or I'm in this city all alone. He doesn't understand. That means Paul now. He's thinking, well, Tom said go through the 12 step model. I must go through the 12 step model. There's so many opportunities, maybe even on the instant date, she's a blatant same day lay girl and he misses it, he drags it out and bubble pops. So missing that window of opportunity, that's a key date sticking point which only really comes with infield experience I. E. Calibration, knowing, okay, this girl's wasting my time. Let's cut it. This girl's quiet, but she's sexually simmering. She's very fertile. She's ovulating. Right. Okay. I know that I know this kind of girl. You might see that, for example, with Japanese girls or kind of introverted English girls. Or when a girl's being too sexual. This one's interesting. Beta bait. So she's talking about blow jobs and anal and how she's fucked a guy in a lift, and she's egging you on and you reveal your cards too soon. She sees, ah, yeah, he's over keen. He's just very thirsty. This guy, he's not getting laid. That's called beta bait. So not being able to read signals, especially in a new country, new city, watch out for that one. And the last one I've jotted down for now which is a very small percentage of my students, something that I've suffered from this year, I've spoken about it openly. No. Some not some chronic sexually transmitted disease, but pulling too fast. So two on. So we took girlfriend sequence, three dates, and then I simmered it down to one date, and this year even fuck that. Let's not even do dates. Let's go fast. Let's burn the boats. Let's burn the bridges. Let's pull pull pull pull pull. So I was skipping out any report, any comfort, just going for same day lays, gutter games. I was doing one venue, one drink, and then pulling her home. Okay? Not even bothering about seeding or really escalating smoothly, just getting her home. She wouldn't put out, okay, fuck you. Next girl. Smash and grab. You learn that kind of game by overly escalating quickly, fast escalation when you're traveling, when you're against the clock, things are down to the wire, and it ruins all the subtleties and nuances of good poker or good chess or good pickup. Yeah? It's actually less efficient. So a golden question which we can kick off with, 2017, the Torero date model. Globally, because I travel all over the world and date girls, what's the optimum number of dates you should go on for your best chance of secret society sex, not boyfriend sex? What do you think it is? One, two, or three? This is like a quiz show. Pick one of those options. Is it to go on one date, two dates, or three dates? And that includes North America, The UK, Australia, etcetera. You might be shocked to hear the answer is two. Okay. It's not actually one. Loads of daygamers show me their data. I know my data, my wing's data, my students' data. And even in places like Sydney or New York or Toronto or London, your safest bet is to go on two. The reason I don't encourage new guys to go on two or three or four is because it slows them down, it encourages all those problems we just spoke about, nice guy, comfort, lack of escalation, popping the bubble. So new guys, nice guys have to try fast escalation. They have to try same day lays. They have to try gutter game. They have to try escalating and kissing and bouncing. Otherwise, you you never get rid of these problems. But if you're a year or two into game, you'll realize that fast escalation, as I speak about in that old fast escalation podcast, triggers, of course, more token LMR, token anti slut defense. The quicker you try to do it, the more problems you're gonna have back in your apartment. So a two date model would be as I say in that clock diagram on the, what to do on a date video. You can run it first venue, little bit of verbal escalation, we call that spiking. Then second venue, little bit of physical escalation, that spiking. Maybe have a cheeky kiss or no kiss little bit of seeding for the next date and then goodbye. You suddenly say you've got to go you might use that knock to call app that I showed you on the best daygame apps here where you say oh, this hot ex bisexual friend she's calling me. I have to go now. Bye. Or just, I have to go. I'll see you next time. Bye. And you don't overly see the next day and seem more keen. You just disappear. And that counter intuitively makes it easier to get her out. Because you finish on a high, she thinks, oh, what did I do wrong? Why did he disappear? He's not that needy for sex. And then, second date might be a little walk in a park or my shopping bag trip trick where I turn up with a shopping bag or we might walk to a supermarket or she might just come around. We cook the food, we watch the Netflix and chill, and sex or almost sex happens on that second date. Would I go on to a third date? Yes. If there's clear progression, so first date was we like each other, little make up maybe. Second date, she's back at mine third base, fooling around. Third date, full great lover sex. But what's the problem with third date sex? You're kind of slipping into boy friend box already. Maybe it's too romantic. You've spent too long together, so you're in the wrong box. And she wants to be exclusive and monogamous. Much easier to be secret society lover, obviously, on same day lay first date or second date. Second date is kind of my favorite because it doesn't generate as much token LMR or ASD. She knows what's what, and she doesn't see you as a needy fucker. You don't go past that point of no return. And let's go with that question. How much time have I got? Ten minutes here. Okay. Ten minutes to go through these questions I've received. The first one was about the point of no return. Does it exist and where is it? Yes. It exists. I would say it exists when you, get back to your apartment and you're dry humping. You're on your bed and hands are going underneath clothing. That's point of no return, especially on the first date because when you're kind of semi naked and it doesn't happen, it's often hard to get her out on the next date because you pull pull pull pull pull, it wasn't calibrated, it wasn't fractionated, you're a eager beaver. And she thinks, yeah, she feels she feels kind of cheapened. Okay? And that's breaking secret society rules. It's not smooth. So there is a point of no return. Be careful you don't cross it. But for you guys, the irony is, yeah, you kind of have to cross the line to know where the line is. As Bextor always used to say, you gotta crash the car, otherwise, you'll never know how fast you can go. Second question, is an instant date a date? No. Don't do verbal escalation, physical escalation. I say an instant date is just an extension of the street set, and it's really just for grounding. So make it fifteen twenty minutes, have a coffee, end on a high, bye. You might do one verbal spike like, wow, you have a very sexy accent or wow, you're very toned. I like it. But don't run the thing, otherwise you're heating her up and the bubble is going to pop. Only start running it if it's the same day lay opportunity like you see in stealth seduction. And even then it's just a coffee, then we have a walk, then you go into venue number one which is a pub and you do verbal. Then you think, okay, this is on. Venue two, physical bounce home. Alright? I even talk about why I don't do instant dates anymore because it doesn't affect the number percentage ratio of girls that text me back. It can actually kill the interaction. Anyway, I get it for newbies. How many dates on average? I've already answered that one. Globally, it's two. Of course, a percentage of girls is one. A percentage of girls is three. I don't go over three unless it's an extreme example in Russia. Okay? Should you pay? Guys get their knickers in a twist all the time because obviously in Neil Strauss' the game 2005 and in those old community posts, it says, never pay for a girl. Okay? Because you're in provider box. Yeah. I get it. The theory is correct. You don't take her to the cinema to dinner. You don't buy her flowers. You don't buy her champagne. You don't buy her expensive cocktails. You don't bring her presents. None of that. Certainly none of that until you've had sex. But even then, don't do it unless you want to be the boyfriend slash provider slash husband. But do you pay? Yes. For the coffee on the instant date. Yeah. Because you invited her on the instant date. It's just a couple of quid. Don't be a stingy bastard. Right? Take it somewhere cheap like subways or Dunkin' Donuts. Buy her a small coffee. When you're dating, choose cheap venues. That's why I choose dive bars, rock and roll bars, happy hours, two for ones, pubs. Okay? And just buy a couple of beers. If she's Russian, yeah, you're gonna buy the next round as well. If you're in Sweden or Canada, she's probably gonna volunteer to buy the next beers. But it's only two drinks maximum if you follow my date model. So that's it. If you're cooking back at yours, I buy instant pasta pasta sauce. It cost me about £3. Alright? I don't drink alcohol. Many religious guys say this, fitness guys say this. Okay. Well, you got to accept that alcohol is as old as time with dating. Alright? It's a social lubricant. And she might think you're odd. So you can do the PUA cocktail, which is just water, ice, slice of lemon, girls don't ask. Or you can lie and say you're training for a triathlon and you're not drinking that evening. Don't make a big thing of it. Yeah? If she's back at yours, you could have a non alcoholic beer. Alright? You can buy that easily in cans and bottles. Just don't make a big thing of it. She won't either. But just accept that drinking is in the DNA, in the social fabric of western society and dating and fucking. And she'll probably want to drink. But I've done many dates where a girl doesn't drink. She's religious. You can do it with tea. It's all about your confidence, your frame, and your leading. Often girls come back to mind for tea or I do mid afternoon dates. I don't recommend beginners do them because it ends up friend to friend, Jody, mister nice guy, but of course you can do them. Yeah. I've run whole date models, verbal and physical in Starbucks. Right? You can read about that in cold calling. A guy messaged me today. He's done the model she won't kiss. Okay. Well, I talk about that as a shit test and in the dating video. It's not if you get the kiss or not, it's about how you react. If you seem butt hurt and you cry, you fail. I just smile and say look, it's my job to try, it's your job to resist. I'm a girl, you're a girl. In ten minutes time, I'm gonna try again. And with some Russian girls, you try three, four or five times spaced out. Just the fact that you went for it and you were a non needy guy about not getting it is enough. So you don't need to kiss him on the first date. And in that physical escalation, dating dynamo, daygame dynamo, I say why kissing is not actually that important. Drive by kissing is knowing you can kisses but I like keeping the sexual tension. Okay? Many guys email me this. A guy emailed me this yesterday. Living with his parents. Logistics are bad. Excuses excuses. Okay. Can you go back to hers? Yes. How do you do it? You see throughout the date. You ask her where she lives, who she lives with, how far away is, find out something you want to see at hers, walk her home, the old classic, use her bathroom, charge your phone, go in for a little bit, have a cup of tea. She knows what that means. Okay? And many girls, if they have the logistics, they'll be happy. If they don't, listen to my podcast on how to have sex in a park. You can use a public toilet. You can use the beach. You can use your car. You gotta be imaginative. But if you're listening to this podcast and you wanna be a black sheep, move the fuck out of your parents house. If you're 16, I understand. If you're 18 to 21, I don't understand. Okay? You need to get your shit together. I'll talk about this in the future. Move out of mommy's house. So no more mommy cooking, no more mommy washing, move out. A guy says, live in a village and I'm 26. I say, well listen mate, if you want to get good at day game and pickup, you have to move. This is clearly a top priority in your in your life, so move to New York, move to London just for a year. Okay? Make it happen. But don't give me those excuses. You've created those problems. Yeah? Last one because we got a couple of minutes left. She says no to the bounce. How do I, should I, when do I set up the second date? So recently when I made that video on bouncing home, I said the aim of the game on the first day is to invite her to your place. You say, let's go. And I say the date was successful if she's standing outside my front door because surprise surprise, my second venue is usually two minutes, five minutes away from my front door. I get at the door. I say, let's go out for half a bottle of wine. She says, no. Let's say she hasn't even kissed me as well. Okay. I'm working out in my head. Is she a time waster? Do I want to see her again? Did I see any progress or little green lights? Is she just shy? Has she run out of time? Has she got an exam tomorrow? She has to get up. This is real. Okay. So a little bit of seeding for the next date as in, you know, did she drink red wine or white wine? Does she like Stephen King or Indiana Jones? Did did she wanna walk through this park or this park? That's as much as I'll seed and talk about my guitar. Maybe, you know, the Nintendo retro games that I was gonna show her, but nothing else. You don't wanna seem over keen like, are you free on Tuesday? Can I see you again on Friday or Saturday? I'm free on Sunday. When are you free? What is best for you? She just thinks you needy fucker. AKA there's no other girls in your life. You've got scarcity that's why you're needy. So a little bit of seeding. I don't text them when I go home. Thank you for a lovely evening. She should be texting you that. If she doesn't, there's silence. In a couple of days, I resume my pinging. All that's covered in street hustle the textbook, but it's for free on that video, what to do on a date. You know, plan a, plan b, plan c. No excuses now, guys. I don't really ever want to talk about dating again unless I come up with some revolutionary topic, a revolutionary improvement. But dating is as old as time. Men are worrying about, is it going to change? Has Tinder changed it? No. We're operating on circuitry which is millions of years old. Okay. So don't you worry about the little updates. It's basically the same. The secret society is secret for a reason. So this is inside knowledge right anyway we shall leave it there that was podcast a 121 on date diagnosis once again comment on any more daygame dynamo videos you want and if you want to be ready for next week's podcast read the book or skim read the book a billion wicked thoughts by Ogas and Gadam from Europe. Keep grabbing life by the horns, and I'll speak to you next week. Ta da.