---
title: Episode 140 The Dark Arts
episode_number: 140
era: late
source_file: Episode 140 The Dark Arts.mp3
audio_size_mb: 129.9
duration_sec: 4256.8
duration_min: 70.9
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.995
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T17:00:53Z---

# Episode 140 The Dark Arts

**Speaker 0:** Thomas Torero podcast a 140. Happy anti Valentine's Day, you filthy bastards. I look like I've been smacked in the face. I have, I guess, by a virus. I'm sitting here in a pub in London with shades on, looking pretentious like a guy in a club, you know, that wears those shades. And I'm full of flu. I'm full of cold. I'm on my way back to Wales, but there was somebody in London I had to meet today. I had to go on a hot date, flown hundreds of miles to go on a date. It's Valentine's Day. So I'm here with the mystery guest. There's a flower on the table. This is wonderful. There's music in the background and I've been trying to go on a date with this guy for many months. But finally, we've made it happen for you, you lucky bastards. Today's podcast is an anti Valentine's Day podcast on the dark arts. That is right. The dark side of game in a good way and, why I enjoy the filth and why today's guest, Revels, enjoys and also writes about filth but before we kick off a big plug an important plug because it's the only live daygame teaching I'm doing this year and that's not a cheesy way to sell places and then me teach at some other point this year I'm not doing any teaching because I'm not doing a world tour this year. But in May, I'm doing the daygame teaching portion of two boot camps in Russia. Mother fucking Russia. The hot skills on the planet. The first one is in Saint Petersburg and the second one is in Moskva. And I'm doing it with two legends, two naughty boys who are certainly into the dark arts. You might know this name, Mystery and Baxter. So they're doing the night game portion of it, the Friday night and Saturday night portion of the boot camp and I'm doing the Saturday day daygame portion of the boot camp. There's also a seminar, I Booking is not through me. Booking is through them. I'm coming along for the ride. So what a triangle of love it will be. Tom Torero, Baxter and Mystery in Saint Petersburg, Friday the eleventh to Sunday May 13 and Moscow, Friday the eighteenth to Sunday May 20. If you're on YouTube, if you're on iTunes, click below there's a link to my blog with the booking and that is it happy Valentine's Day or you might remember my video last year happy anti Valentine's Day that means she's buying you stuff she's texting chasing you, she's sobbing on the phone, she's written you a poem, she's written you a song, she cooks for you, that my friends is called macking. If you know the art of pimping, congratulations. You're holding a frame, you're not under the thumb. Maybe look, maybe you do have a girlfriend or a wife but you're still a mac daddy. So congratulations if you listen to this. To all the bachelors out there today, I salute you. Don't let people shame you for it. I'm sitting here with another bachelor and, we're quite happy. We're having a great time. This is a great day. It's much better than being in Nando's with some bird you've been seeing for eight years. Bless. But look, if you hold the frame, fantastic. That's what I mean. I'm not shaming all relationships. I'm saying, are you the mac daddy? Is she doing more for you today than you are doing for her? That's the test. It all comes down to that. Who holds the frame? You or her. Right. Enough waffle. But this podcast is gonna be a little bit waffly because we're gonna go over thirty minutes because it's a Valentine's special. And today is a walk on the wild side with the one, the only filthy game writer, a veteran of game is Troy Francis. Good afternoon, Troy. Good afternoon, Tom. Very good to be here with you on this beautiful Valentine's Day. It's so emotional that I'm crying. Can you see the tears coming out of my eyes? I was very moved to see that you were so tearful when we met earlier on. We met in a very romantic train station, you know, like in the movies under the clock. It we tried to make this happen, haven't we, for quite quite a while, but you travel, I travel, but for Valentine's Day, we made it happen. We've come together for Valentine's Day. We've come together and this podcast is certainly something unusual. I have made one with another filthy bastard called Craig Cassidy. We made one called filth that was episode one one three. And to be honest, it got mixed reviews. Guys didn't like it because it goes against this self development Yeah. Squeaky clean version of pickup and for ages, whenever I've spoken to Troy, we've said, look, that's not how we see pickup and that's not what we enjoy about pickup so let's just fucking do a podcast on the darker side of game in a good sense and surprise surprise a lot of Troy's material that he publishes for free that he writes in books is exactly on this content so who's more filthy I'm a squeaky clean boy as you know Christian boy so I think I think you Troy are the filthy bastard

**Speaker 1:** Well, I yes. Absolutely. I think I am pretty filthy. I I've always been sort of drawn to the darker side of life, I suppose, the darker side of human emotions. And as we were saying before the podcast, I've been drawn to these things in literature, in art, in movies, people's memoirs, and so on. And then when I got into game, which was kind of back in the early two thousands now, really, 2005, probably. You're granddad of game. Absolutely. Yes. Sadly, it's true. And we can can we say your age, actually? It's important. Yes. 43, I'm afraid. That's good. So shut up, you bastard to email me and say you're 39 and too old. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, somebody emailed me about that the other day, actually, and this guy was 29 and he said, you know, I'm turning 30. And people often have that big sort of turning 30 is quite a big one because you're, you know, obviously, you're leaving your twenties going to another decade. And I said to this guy, mate, you you know, the thirties the thirties are your best your best time. I mean The thirty thirty. Absolutely. And actually, of of my thirties, my when I was 39 was my was my best year of my thirties. I mean, was that was full on. I had I was I had a, you know, soft harm of, like, five girls at that time. I was, I was banging strippers. I was like, all sorts of stuff. So to anybody who's listening, if you're, you know I mean, thirties, no problem. That is that is prime time. And now going into my forties, that's that's also been awesome, and that's really what I'm exploring now. You know, obviously, how do we take this forward

**Speaker 0:** Yeah. Into our forties and beyond. That's how we met. We didn't meet on match.com even though the rumors say that we met chatting about sustainability really keeping this going and we ask the same questions about when do you stop what's the sweet spot and then by reading your blog I thought oh he's a bit of a filthy bastard as well and I like that because what I like and what you love I think is the the honesty of the humanness of the human condition you know Absolutely.

**Speaker 1:** And you're a Smiths fan. Is that right? Yes. Are you a child of the eighties? I I yes. I am. So I'm a Smiths fan. I'm a Depeche Mode fan. I'm an early soft sell fan. So there's a lot of like CD sort of material that that that came out at that time which probably influenced me. I love it but but for the same reason those bands though they're great because they don't hide

**Speaker 0:** the kinkiness, the filthiness, the rawness.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. And it's interesting how you've had since then, you've had obviously Madonna, but then you've got Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande and people like that sort of sort of playing with kinky imagery, playing with sort of BDSM type imagery, but doing it in very watered down kind of a way. You know? And I think it's what's what I'm really drawn to in writers and singers and so on is is is is honesty and authenticity, I think.

**Speaker 0:** And it this is I think it's ripe for comeback, you know. People are so thirst y for their next Hemingway or Burkowski or the cure someone who just fucking says look this yeah I'm human and I'm fallen and as ever on the Tom Torero podcast I'm gonna read two quotes for Troy Francis as a springboard to ask him about your background yeah certainly a game background yeah not your gay background better you know that's a separate topic but yeah the type of obviously you do approach in different forms, but also the stuff you write about. So what you're interested in and the quotes go like this. The first one says, I loved her but the dark side of her. Any girl can play innocent but her demons are what drove me wild. Her secrets, pain, her darkness, that's what made me love her. That's by Michael Marquez. Yeah. And the second quote I really like by Sue Grafton. She says, we all need to look into the dark side of our nature. That's where the energy is, the passion. People are afraid of that because it holds pieces of us we're busy denying. Yes. And you don't mind me saying on the podcast because you write about it that you And have or had an addictive personality. Yes. You had different treatment for that. Yeah. So let's take it back to yeah your past and this darker side of things how what was it like university getting into game yeah up until today well

**Speaker 1:** I had a relatively fucked up childhood So my parents divorced when I was quite young, and then my father got custody of me and my sister, and he remarried my my stepmother. She had a daughter. So I was in this new family unit, and I won't go into details, but it it wasn't particularly happy for a lot of a lot of that time. And and so I think that from the very beginning, it gave me I I had a very fractured view of relationships, I think, from from a very early stage. I kind of realized I never really had this Disney idea of marriage or this Disney idea that relationships would sort of last forever. Then when I was growing up, I was quite I was always quite withdrawn. I was quite shy. I found it quite difficult to to associate with other people. So I was quite troubled as a as a as a younger guy really. And that went on really through my teens. I had really bad acne as well when I was in my teens, which is a pain in the ass as everybody will know. So as a combination of all of those things, was absolutely terrible with with women really until and I lost my virginity quite late as well when I was nineteen twenty. So, you know, I I was I pretty much struck out with with girls really throughout all of my teens. So I I I come from a very, very bad springboard. Then probably as a result of that and also just because of my inherent nature, I went to up to university in Manchester. Manchester. Yeah. And when I was up there, I got heavily into drinking. I got heavily into clubbing as well. And along with that, the other, you know, various other substances that Was the hacienda still standing? Well, do you know what? I worked in the hacienda for a a year. Oh, fuck me. Oh, we're talking proper grime now. This is great. Yeah. Yeah. So I it was this was in the sort of mid nineties. So it was really the fag end of the hacienda. So the glory days everyone talks about with New Order and everything, that was late eighties or whatever. This was this was kind of at the fag end of it really when it was just tourists and students and gangsters, basically. But I worked there for a year. I saw a lot of very dodgy sights. The door team there was sort of gang affiliated. It was you get people being held up working on the bar by gunpoint.

**Speaker 0:** If you don't know what we're talking about, watch twenty four hour party people, I think is the film. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and

**Speaker 1:** there was a lot of there was a lot of gang sort of problems Manchester at that time, which was all around drug possibly now, but all around drug dealing. There's ecstasy at the time. Yeah. Absolutely. So you'd see these gangsters in the corner with their champagne and surrounded by their girls and everything. So it was a really interesting kind of environment for a young

**Speaker 0:** Well, that surely must explain some of your seedy addictions.

**Speaker 1:** I think possibly, but I think yes. Absolutely. But we again, we were talking about this earlier, and it it it's interesting to try to to work out why you're drawn to a certain scene. And I think I think the truth is I was drawn to to working there into places like that because that was what I was into. Because otherwise, why didn't I just get a job in the library? You know? So clearly, it's sort of it's chicken and egg, isn't it? I was drawn to to that sort of scene and that's where I ended up. And then that continued to influence me.

**Speaker 0:** Okay. So from losing your v plates to what? To a long term girlfriend to a decade of or all the way was it until 2005 and the game? No. So what happened,

**Speaker 1:** through working the clubs actually so I met a girl actually in the Hacienda, a very attractive, Scouse, Liverpudlian girl, and we got into a relationship. And it was it went on for about four years. It was a it was a disaster, in the end, because I didn't hold the frame. I had no I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't understand female psychology. I didn't understand how relationships work. I was too needy. I was chodey. I was also drinking the whole time as well, which made me, you know, even more needy. So the whole thing she cheated on me. I actually ended up cheating on her as well, but only only through luck because I got drunk and ended up banging one of her friends. But the the whole thing was was a disaster, and it carried on for much longer than it should have done. But you see at the at that time, I had massive scarcity mentality. I just I had no idea that I could go out and get other girls, you know. So I was hanging on to this one girl even though it was clearly not right. And that you know and that's where I was I was stuck in scarcity really for a lot of my early twenties. You're an interesting character as well in that you know people would say you're a good looking guy so again it's just another

**Speaker 0:** nice case study that you can not know your value many times a student will come on a boot camp and I go what the fuck like a guy on Skype yesterday you know so it's testimony to this silly argument of looks is everything I think there's yeah. I mean, there's something interesting about that really because I look back at

**Speaker 1:** older pictures of me. The the I haven't got many many photographs from my teens, but I look back at pictures and I think at the time you a punk? Were you a goth? No. I had bleached hair at one when when Paul Gascon got his hair bleached, I I I had the bleached hair look for a while. That was actually quite punky and I I did wear some Yeah. Slightly punky stuff at that time. But anyway, you know, I look back on earlier pictures of me. Now at the time, I I I went through life being a Morrissey fan thinking, I'm ugly, I'm unlovable, I I will never you know? And actually, no. I look back at the pictures and think, well, actually, I was alright. You know? And the truth is, when I was at school, I would get oneitis for girls. So I get fixated on this particular girl, think she's amazing. How can I get her? You know? And actually, there would be other girls who would indicate interest in me, but I just I just push them aside because I'd wait for the angel for the goddess. You know? Completely the wrong way to to go about it, but it wasn't until years later that I learned, you know, the realities of how things work and how you should operate. But how did you find out about pickup? So I I stopped drinking. So I had to basically, I got to a point in my life where it was clear that, you know, the drink and the other things that I was doing, it it just it wasn't you know, I I went into a pretty dark place, I had to do something to sort it out. So I so I did. I I went to get help for that. I stopped drinking. And ironically, what happened then, you you'd sort of think somebody stops drinking and they stopped going out. I started going out more. So I drinking, almost immediately, I was going out instead of going out two or three nights of the week. I was going out every night of the week going to going to clubs in Manchester trying to pull girls. Because what tends to happen with this addictive sort of nature is that you push it down in one area, area and then it comes up again in a different area. So I was going out and, you know, approaching girls, talking to girls, but in a very untutored way. I hadn't discovered games, so I didn't I didn't really know what I was doing. But the one thing that was that was good was that I was very persistent and I I was Horny bastard. Yeah. I was very horny and so I would just approach like a a demon. And Thank God you started with that and not like many people do today theory. I I think that approach of not stumbling through the dark and getting laid occasionally Yeah. Randomly, that taught you a hell of a lot. It did. It did. In a much more aggressive environment than daygame because I I you know, you gotta admire nightgamers for learning social dynamics Yeah. In your fucking face. Yeah. Well, at at that that time, I had no concept at all of daygamers even being being possible really. But then I moved back down to South. I moved to London. And when I was in London, I got onto a a forum that I think we're both aware of for for pickup artists based in London. And I read the game as everybody So this was around 2005? Yeah. So around that time, I read the game and I got involved with this forum and I started reading things like, you know, Tyler Durden of RSD's early posts online and different things. So I started to learn the rudiments of game, if you like. I started to see that actually there was a structure that could be applied to this. There was a that that seduction was a process and there were distinct phases of it and But was it like

**Speaker 0:** for many of us you discover it and you go oh of course it clicks. I mean it's the thing that you kind of knew and someone just says this is it. To some guys, it's puzzling when they find it. But to me, it never was because it was just, oh, this is what the university biology textbooks said.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. I think that's shifted the paradigm for me. So whereas before, I'd been going out and talking to a lot of girls and getting some success, but it was all very haphazard. When I started to learn about game, it it just put a structure structure around it, and it just kind of gave me a gave me a process, and that gave me a lot of confidence. So then I started going out with guys in London from the forum, going out with wings,

**Speaker 0:** talking to girls. And this was clubs someday.

**Speaker 1:** Some online. It was a bit of it was a bit of both, actually. So the if you remember, you know, people used to about Leicester Square and they called it Pester Square, didn't they? Yeah. So there was an element of game even even then, really. So we do a bit of day game or sort of gutter game, if you like. Day game's in the book, the game. You know? He's in an art gallery. He's in a supermarket. He's in Denny's. Yeah. And then we go into the clubs at night. So we go to places like torture sorry. We go to places like Tiger

**Speaker 0:** Tiger Tiger. Really believe? Yeah. Yeah. All of those lovely places. Cool. Sticky floor venues. Yes. Yes. They still hold boot camps in those venues to this day. Yeah. I you know, Jesus. So that that was your training. And did you see tangible success with the system as opposed to smash and grab in the dark? Yeah. I mean

**Speaker 1:** so after I mean, at that point, I I heard Baxter on the show a a few weeks ago, and he was talking about routines. And at that point, I was using a lot of routines. And so I think when I first started, I was I was a little bit nervous at first. And then when I got into it and it kinda clicked into place, then it started to really work. And then suddenly my results were exponentially growing. You know, I was starting to and and, you know, you go through this almost pink cloud golden period where you're like, wow. This is this is fucking amazing. You know, suddenly, I was going out, you know, three, four times a week. I was talking to loads of birds, but I was also applying, you know, what I'd learned. And and, yeah, you know, my results were going through the roof, and I was I was, you know, this is this is amazing. This is fantastic, you know. Alright. Well, let's take it from kind of normal game, vanilla game that we all know and love. Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** Cold approach, picking up girls to the real topic of today, the anti Valentine's topic of seediness and kinkiness and filthiness and forbidden fruits which is what you spend your life now writing about. I've said in the past that I'm confused. I find I chuckle actually because I say pickup is punk like pickup is the opposite righteous traditional views and that's we don't need to go down this route but at some point in the last few years the pickup community has merged with the kind of conservative online community and the raw filthiness which is what sex is quite literally has been lost and there's a lot of people talking about you know doing what's right and settling down and 2.4 children and church life and the blogs on church pickup I just think what how did that happen you know but anyway I've got a handy bullet point list and I'm gonna fire off subtopics and you just take them in any direction you want right? Because I know you spend your days writing about this. So the first one is the types of naughtiness. So beyond cold approach pickup, so different venues, types of game. What what avenues did you explore? What rabbit holes did you go down after Tiger Tiger?

**Speaker 1:** Well, was from Tiger Tiger to the to the to the international fetish scene really quite quite quickly. One jump. One jump from, yeah, from listening to steps in Tiger Tiger two. No. I mean, obviously, I'm

**Speaker 0:** obviously, this is a daygame podcast, so we wanna be talking about we wanna be talking Today, we can talk it doesn't we can say it doesn't really matter where you meet him. Yeah. I'll because because yeah. Okay. If you're a hardcore daygamer listening to this, you can take the girl to these venues. Yeah. Absolutely.

**Speaker 1:** So I through somebody I met through the community or through the through the pickup scene in London I started to go to the London Club Torture Garden so which is a BDSM club, world famous BDSM fetish party. They hold it once a month in London at different venues around town. We're not talking about chubby old German swingers. This is kind of fashionable young

**Speaker 0:** sexy girls. So

**Speaker 1:** yeah. No. So the the torture girl in crowd is probably one of the is probably the best crowd I've seen at any club in London in terms of of looks. I mean, you've got some incredible looking girls there. And actually, to be to be fair, you've also got a lot of alpha guys who are very good looking and all the rest of it as well. So there's a lot of competition there. But if you wanna go to a party where there's lots of girls in their underwear or lingerie or just, you know, little PVC or leather outfits, and let's face it, you know, who doesn't, then torture gun is absolutely fantastic.

**Speaker 0:** So I I can hear the guys already going, this is it. The secret. I just walk in and I can have a foursome. Yeah. But as we always talk about the sexual marketplaces everywhere from Sainsbury's to Torture Garden I would say Torture Garden and these venues it's it's even more defined so this is not a hack you cannot go in there and get your immediate threesome yeah this is a raw sexual economics right in front of you quite literally. It no. It absolutely is. And I think that's one of the I think that's one of the interesting

**Speaker 1:** things about it really. Also, I would say if people are listening who are just hardcore a gamers, the interesting thing about this scene is that for one, it teaches you a hell of a lot about the sexual marketplace. Because if you you know, it's it's it's one thing to read blogs and read books about, you know, the hierarchy, about alphas, omegas, and, you know, sexual sexual market value. But my experience in going to these places, it very, very clearly, starkly shows it in front of you. And that's really fed into my daygame as well because it's it's given me a greater understanding of the sexual marketplace and also, to be frank, how filthy girls are. Exactly. My point was that Baxter took me to the venues that you'll talk about most of the same clubs and bars and it destroyed

**Speaker 0:** my purity Yeah. Fantasy because once you've seen that stuff, girls that work in very normal jobs, sweet librarian girls, you know, very openly loving they're what doing in those clubs. And, yeah, it's no going back, is there? No. Absolutely. And if you haven't got experience at the secret society yet, listen to these venues that you can talk about, Troy. Yeah. But,

**Speaker 1:** yes, I think there is a misconception. So when I talk about these things, people will say, oh, okay. So you just turn up and you you you get laid, you know. Or you you know, you just turn up, get get your dick out and Or this scene only attracts a certain type of girl anyway, not the kind of girls I would like. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I mean, I have met all types of girls at parties of this kind. So I've met, you know, PhD students. I met doctors. I met lawyers. I've met girls who are very successful in business, girls who work in politics, all the way down well, I say down. No value judgment here, but all the way across to strippers, to dancers, to actresses, to to models. So I I think, you know, girls are girls and human nature is human nature as you know, and sexuality is sexuality. And, you you know, it's a misconception

**Speaker 0:** to think that because somebody has a certain kind of job or they they behave a certain way in one sphere that they are, you know, that they're not affected by biology. It's a tragedy of daygamers that a lot if you ask guys, why do you do day daygame and not Tiger Tiger? They'll say because you find better quality girls. Yes. They wouldn't go to Tiger Tiger. And you go, well, once a month, she will. On her birthday, on a piss up from work, She's in Tiger Tiger. It's the same girl that you met in Covent Garden. Well, absolutely. And I mean, I've been

**Speaker 1:** I've gone out a couple of times with this Latvian, very beautiful Latvian girl recently who I met working in a big department store. And she is very I mean, if if guys have this view of Eastern European girls as being sort of conservative and traditional and everything else and then she looks she looks very nice on the outside, and she's well dressed, and she's feminine and polite and all that kind of stuff. But the other night, we were out and she was telling me about how her ex, who by the way was was 50, rich 50 year old Saudi guy, used to take her to killing kittens the whole time. So killing kittens, which we can talk about in a minute, is a very well known swingers sort of sex party that takes place in big houses around London. So, you know, if if you met her, you'd think very sweet, very innocent, very nice, probably very conservative, Eastern European girl. Actually, that's not the case at all. You know? Yeah. So you'll you know, the girls that you meet through daygame are the same girls

**Speaker 0:** Oh, yeah. That you that you meet in the clubs by and large. I mean, it's not that there's something to do. I call this shape shifting, you know? She might be the sweet girl with you and you go around the park with her, but with another guy, she wants to fulfill that eyes wide shut, 50 shades of grey thing and she's going to you you you my friend probably will never know that's why it's called the secret society because if you knew you wouldn't take it around the park yeah absolutely and actually though I

**Speaker 1:** dated last year this girl from Hungary who I called Liliana on my blog, and there's there's a lot of articles on there about it. Think guys were getting sick of hearing about it in the end because it was but it was I got some great material out of it. But this girl, when I I first met her in Torture Garden, she travels between different cities. So she works in Budapest, London, Prague, Vienna, and some different places. So I met her when she was in London. She was at Torture Garden on her own wearing she's wearing little a latex sort of outfit, very sexy, little latex skirt, like nice bra top and stuff. But but nevertheless, we got talking and she she she was clearly very intelligent, very very very cultured. She worked for a start up. She had a lot of responsibility, lot of employees and everything. She was if you met her outside of the environment, you would think this is the she's a typical good girl. And if you look at her her Facebook and her Instagram, you know, there's a lot of very good girl pictures about of her, you know, going out in parks and, you know, going to the zoo and all this kind of stuff. But her other side Yeah. Is going to Torture Garden. She had a very semi abusive relationship with her ex boyfriend who she was still madly in love with that was based on sort of domination and BDSM and, you know, he was getting her to he was pimping her out effectively. He was getting her to to to have sex with other guys.

**Speaker 0:** Oh, oh, the irony. As we said over over when we get that email, how do I keep her, Troy? How do I do deep connection with this girl? Yeah. Mate, you don't wanna know how the guys in prison keep these girls. Yeah. It's we'll come back to domination. Remind me that. Yes. Yes. But yes we're basically talking about lifting the lid yeah eyes wide shut what goes on in London this is the fascinating thing that you enjoy can you name some more venues just practically I'll throw out freedom look up freedom bar in Soho I used to take girls to g a y in Soho yeah what's the club in that street of embassies no it's a sex party in a mansion Portland place yes so let's just Google Portland place sex parties there's some wonderful hustling going on there. Yes. Absolutely. So that's owned. I think well, I I It's used by different people. It's used it's it's it was used in the King's speech from the King's speech to Vogue fashion shoots, but it's used often for sex parties. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And if if you go there, you'll see why shabby chic filth. It's fantastic. Yes. I've been to several

**Speaker 1:** events at at that place. And I mean and this is the thing I think that fascinates me. It's it's what happens behind closed doors. Yeah. You know, because we walk we walk down the street in London and it all looks quite nice in English and posh.

**Speaker 0:** And But we were just saying across the street there, this area is famous for? Hookers, it's famous for Showery hotels. Yeah. Net curtains, traveling, anonymity.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Absolutely. And and this is this has always drawn me. I've always found this stuff fascinating. And when I got into game in the in, you know, the early two thousands, I felt that there was a sort of a crossover between some of the stuff that I've been reading about. So if if people, you know, are aware of the work of somebody like Charles Bukowski where he's talking about the seedier side of life. You know, he's talking about being a bum, you know, living in bars basically, drinking himself into a stupor, having these affairs with much younger women and so on. I was always I was always fascinated with that. Yeah. And then when game came along, I thought, well, there's a there's a sort of a an equip there's a sort of connection between these two things. But it seemed to me that a lot of the guys in the community didn't see that or or or maybe they didn't talk about it openly. And because it's quite disturbing when you first learn all this, it's it's tempting to cough it back up as you say you know cough up the red pill and say well listen let's not make game about that let's make game

**Speaker 0:** about life coaching yoga green tea getting teeth whitening just being a good being a nice societal guy whereas when you look into these events if you look into pimping if you look into domination which is a fundamentally biological concept why women want to be dominated yes it ain't pretty so that's what when I called it the dark arts, you write about dark triad. Yes. It's a common game topic, but I'm obsessed with the amplification of these traits in good pickup artist. Again, it's completely opposite to self development. Can you mention I know I think you even wrote a book on it. You you go over three. You include four. Can you mention? Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** So I wrote a book which came out last year called How to Be an Asshole. And Your mom must be so proud. Yes. Subtle subtle title. And, basically, I go through the the different elements of the the dark tech triad. So I talk about so the dark triad, which obviously is talked about a lot by by different people. And if you Google dark triad, you'll find psychology sites that talk about this combination of of elements

**Speaker 0:** that that that come together. In your head, just picture Leonardo DiCaprio, Wolf of Wall Street. That one image of him with his arms wide open. So what what are they? So they are narcissism

**Speaker 1:** Yep. Machiavellianism Sneakiness, that means. Absolutely. And psychopathy, which is Misunderstood

**Speaker 0:** a word. We're not talking about Hannibal Lecter there. We're talking about a coldness to perhaps some human emotions. I think

**Speaker 1:** in my book when I talk about psychopathy, I define it as being limited degree of empathy. And I think when you look at successful players who may or may not be people into game, they may be they may be naturals, they tend to not be overly empathetic to the girls that they're dating, which in in in common language basically means they they give less of a fuck. Yeah. They can be very cold. Yeah. You know, that's part of the reason of, you know, attraction is in the push. Yeah. Absolutely. And so and again, you know, this stuff isn't particularly pretty, reality that as as guys will know, the more that you, you know, shower her with love, the more that you shower her with affection and chocolates on Valentine's Day and everything, unfortunately,

**Speaker 0:** the more likely she's gonna push you away. Whereas the guys who who who don't have empathy, they they will push her away and not really care about it. In literature, it's the anti hero, isn't it? Yes. And surprise surprise, what do women obsess over? Heathcliff, you know, Batman, any bad boy, all the way down to Charles Manson, a proper psychopath. Yeah. Again, it's not very nice to realize that women find this incredibly Yes. Attractive on a biological level. I'm not saying consciously morally. I'm sure she's shocked morally but there's studies that show her body is doing something different to when she sees something horrendous. Yes. And again, that's in sperm wars. That's biology. It's not easy to stomach that if you're a sweet guy who's into life coaching. No.

**Speaker 1:** Absolutely. And even worse is the is the fourth of the the doctor trap which is which is sadism. Now this you know, if if we can sort of if we can sort of get through psychopathy with the loophole that it it's it's really about empathy, sadism is, of course, a a difficult thing to talk about in terms of a sanitized Yeah. Sort of day, sort of game approach if you like.

**Speaker 0:** In terms of inflicting pain, internal pain?

**Speaker 1:** Yes. But let's let's divide that into that that could be that could be emotional pain as you know, we're not necessarily talking about physical pain here. Now I'm not saying that people should go out and deliberately do this. It's a very it's a very difficult thing. I think we need to be I think we need to be aware

**Speaker 0:** of what actually attracts women and what actually arouses women. Of course. It's so easy to take out out of context, you know. Yeah. There's a disclaimer with it like token last minute resistance and Yeah. Absolutely. But you only need to look at fetish clubs and fetish outfits and all the way down to pimping. I mean, pimping is the extreme example I've said many times before. I'm not telling you to become a pimp but you have to look at the mechanisms of why she finds that so incredibly attractive and as a biologist I'd ask you these questions. Why does a girl like her hair being pulled? You know, why does a girl like soft choking? Yeah. And once again it's a disclaimer. We're playing probably in a club or, you know, domination. But your your eyes are wide open, It's on there because in the club, quite literally in front of you is a girl being heavily physically, emotionally dominated.

**Speaker 1:** Yes. Absolutely. And I mean, it's incredible, and I find it fascinating. Now, again, I think it's with all of these things, I think it's I think it's valuable to have an awareness of them. Now that doesn't mean and, I mean, you know, when I look at my background, I mean, really, really, my background when I was a when I was a teenager, really, I was a I was a nice guy, to be honest. And I I still probably am more empathetic than I think would be would be the most economical for me, really, in terms of my pickup. You know, I so for me, it's always been about observing

**Speaker 0:** what actually goes on and then thinking about, okay. Well, I maybe I don't wanna take it to that extreme, but what lessons can be learned? Taking on the traits. I call it a nice bad boy. You call well, you call it how to become an arse. So taking on those traits. Yes. Absolutely. It's it's playing in a way. And it's only play I say to guys, you only have to turn that on with her in the privacy of your own room for an hour. Yeah. It doesn't mean you take that on on the train or with your boss. Of course, you don't. You're not an idiot. Yeah. But yeah. If you're unaware or you deny that these things exist, man, reality is gonna be cruel to you because girls obsess about it. I would say the psychological even more. Know, they all like the physical play, but the psychological,

**Speaker 1:** that is chick porn, isn't it? It it absolutely, it is. And I mean, if you we only have to look at the success of 50 Shades of Grey to to see that. I mean, that that sold, you know, billions of copies. And, you know, we we have to ask why was that so massively popular among so many females. You know, clearly, it it touched a clearly, it touched on something that's you know, and then you look at something like the Nancy Friday book about female fantasies. I mean, I I would say in my in my experience, I would say that I I I mean, I genuinely believe that that women are probably more, you know, kinky than than guys in many cases and certainly more prone to fantasies in many cases. I mean, I I've had girlfriend I mean, so many girlfriends who like to, you know, have their hair pulled or to be spanked and all this kind of stuff. And this isn't even girls who would go to something like No. That's just light, isn't it? That's just the beginning. I can't think of a girl that doesn't. Yeah. Absolutely. But but then you're shocked by that one girl who will keep asking for more and more and more. And I've reached limits with

**Speaker 0:** lots of girls where they've asked me to go beyond and I'm like, I can't physically do anymore. Yeah. I often tell the story of that girl in Notting Hill actually, a black girl. And I did as much as I could, and then she said hit me with an iron. Bloody hell. And I and I was shocked. And she said, yeah, her ex boyfriend used to hit her with an iron, not turned on. But that's when I was like, fuck, that's Yeah. How deep does this go? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and, you know, there there's gonna be certain lines that that,

**Speaker 1:** you know, speak I mean, speaking for for both of us, really, I I I think I think there are lines that we would not go beyond. But, you know, it's it's interesting to recognize how much of turn on these girls find that stuff. I mean, I I was dating a Turkish girl for a while here in London, and I remember, you know, we go to bed and she say, hurt me. Yeah. You you you know, and it's sort of like and I'm as the the still the nice guy in the back of my head, I'm like, what the fuck? You know?

**Speaker 0:** A girl recently in Singapore, she said again, consensually, she said, I want you just to grab me when I come in and not tell me what you're gonna do and just do it in the dark. Yes. I'm like, okay. Take that in, nice guys. Take that in. Yeah. No. It's it's it's fascinating

**Speaker 1:** stuff. And it's it's it's fascinating the dissonance between the sort of narrative that we are presented by society, by the culture about this is how we're meant to relate. And actually what at street level what girls actually respond to and what they actually want and Yeah. There's there's a dichotomy there and it's it's difficult to it presents a lot of problems.

**Speaker 0:** Let's let's not get into people, Troy. Let's keep it on really on your observations of this. So you've said mainstream clubs, you've said sex parties. I know you frequent other venues not necessarily to partake but sometimes to relax to enjoy to take girls to like I do because guys have said to me why why are going to gay clubs Tom or even gay bars in London mate take a girl to a gay bar that's or freedom which is filthy downstairs and watch that sweet girl open her eyes. But can you mention

**Speaker 1:** where else you frequent? I know you're a big fan of Berlin which is Absolutely. One of the world capitals of filth. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, that's one of the reasons I love Berlin a lot. It's a it's a very kinky place. It's probably not the best place for game. I think guys have acknowledged that. I mean, the day I've done daygame there, I've had Daygame number. Nightgame? Nightgame is is really good because it's almost like a sort of a dark inverse through the looking glass Vegas in the sense that girls go there. That Banksy version of Vegas. Yeah. Because because girls go there and they wanna have a a a crazy Berlin experience. And what what happens in Berlin stays in Berlin. But, course, it's the complete opposite of the glossiness and the glitz of of Vegas. It's in a warehouse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and I went to Kit Kat Club, which is a very famous sort of BDSM fetish party there. And I am seeing a Serbian girl at the moment who's based in London. So she I got her to come over for the weekend, and I took her to to this club. And she's pretty she's pretty alternative, and she's not she's not she's certainly not a girl who is

**Speaker 0:** who who who is is shy about the kinds of things that she likes, but certainly she hadn't ever gone into that scene before. Anyway They'll they'll try it. That's an interesting point. It's not like men. It's not black and white. Girls will try the bi thing for one night. Yeah. Most of them have kissed their friends and rolled around with them. It's again guys are like but she's she said she wasn't bi. Yeah. But she'll try it. If your frame's good which is the pin frame, you can slowly start taking girls to stronger and stronger venues. Yeah. Absolutely. In the below the belt, there's the text exchange I have to get a threesome at the end of 2016 with, you know, more and more heavy psychological Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Play. Yeah. They'll do it, man. They'll try it. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, you know, she she came to the club. She's a bit nervous at first. And, you know, by the end of the the end of the night, we are you know, we're having sex by the stage in front of everybody. Do know what I mean? It's like her her any any resistance that she had or any any any doubts that she had about it completely melted away. And, I mean, similarly, I've taken girls to to places like that, and we have you know, I've got them to, you know, to bring other girls into it, and then we've we've, you know, we've had threesomes as a result of that. I I like to take girls to I mean, I'm drawn to venues which are a bit kinky, which are a bit a bit seedy. And I quite like to take girls to those to those venues because I think it it it's a fun thing to do, and I think it just it just opens up the sort of the sexual, you know, relationship

**Speaker 0:** between you if you like. So But you also you also sit in a strip club in a sauna, not necessarily to pay for services, but again, it's Yeah. It's the observer of filth.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. The observer of filth. So there's a a sauna that I go to in North London called Rios, which is in Kentish town, if if people know that area, which I would I wouldn't recommend for game, but it's very interesting as far as the sexual marketplace is concerned. But, actually, I have taken girls there with me because it's a bit it's quite funny. So I've taken I was I was dating a Lithuanian stripper for a while, and she was actually a big fan of Roosh. So I went with her a couple of times. And, basically, if you haven't been, Roosh is a it's a sauna. So it's got a number of Jacuzzis, different saunas, a big Jacuzzi pool where you can get about 30 people in it or and so on. And it's a naturist place, so people go there to basically be naked, enjoy the facilities, and also

**Speaker 0:** bang each other. But we were laughing at how even the grotesque, quote unquote, the France is bacon kind of shocking portrait is somehow human. It's very fascinating to see, you know, even German swingers on a beach. I you can't look away. It's human, and I admire their openness. I love the old German swinging community because they're like, I don't give a fuck like Yeah. Absolutely. We so in a way, I find that more liberating than a church meeting where we deny

**Speaker 1:** human sexuality. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, again, you see in very stark relief, you see the sexual marketplace at play in these places. And what's interesting is because in somewhere like Rio's where, you know, to try not to be rude about it, but the the aesthetic standards are not are not so high. The women that that are in there are very highly prized. So you'll get a woman who might on, you know, us on your scale might be a four or something, who in in that context suddenly becomes an eight or a nine. Yeah. And she's surrounded by guys because the guys are very thirsty in there, you know, and they're they're looking, you know, they're looking to have sex. And so, you know, they'll they'll go to her. And it's kind of incredible, but, you know, I mean, I I think it's there's something wonderful about the seediness of it, and there's something, you know, I I'm one thing that I've always found disappointing about London over the last decade is how a lot of these places are getting closed. Yeah. Soho in particular. Yeah. Soho, it's getting cleaned up. All the old venues are going. And I I think that's really sad because I think, you know, I I think there should be room for everybody really. And just because people are at different

**Speaker 0:** places in the in the hierarchy, I don't think that means But it will it will always exist, won't it, mate? I think other cities now around the world are popping up and there's gonna always be Yeah. The underside of the vanilla, you know? Yeah. And guys like us will seek it out. Yes. Girls girls probably know more about those places in the cities than we do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's fun to it's fun to take girls to those places as well. So

**Speaker 1:** for example, the there's a a strip club in Soho called Sunset Strip, which is one of the last and, again, you know, I I'm I'm writing a book about strip club club game, but, you know, so it's it's been an interest of mine. I've dated strippers, I've met strippers at at that club. But

**Speaker 0:** generally speaking, I like to go just to observe and I've often taken girls to see Take straight girls and get them to have a dance and then have a makeup. Yeah. Absolutely. And they love it. They absolutely love it. And you say pick a girl. What's your type? You know, again, we're not to the disclaimer is we're not saying go to a if you don't have game, pay for it. Go get an addiction to strippers. No. I've said many times it's kind of anti game if you have no game. But if you're already in this world Yeah. It just adds. When I used to live in Soho, I didn't need to escalate because you walk a straight girl through Soho, the back streets, her eyes are popping out of her head. Yeah. You know, and then I show her some CD venues. We end up in Freedom.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. The escalation's done. Take her to GIY. She can see all all sorts all of stuff happening on the dance floor. Absolutely. I think that's a really important point. And I think and and and also look at the number of girls who go to straight girls who go to going clubs anyway. So they like it anyway. And because of the natural sexually charged environment in those places, it just it it helps you out because it's it's upping their buying temperature. Yeah. It's upping. But to to go back to the to go back to Torero gun and the BDSM clubs at the moment from a game perspective, what what I found was I really like to go to those places as an adjunct to my game because clearly, you've got a big group of girls who who go to these things who are really kinky, and they'll go to that those parties in order to, basically, to meet guys and to to have sex. You know, they wanna have a sexual adventure. So for me, I think as a for a pickup artist, it's a great thing if you're that way inclined to to look into and to explore. But you shouldn't assume, as we said, that it's an easy ticket. Because Certainly not. Because actually,

**Speaker 0:** the competition in those places is really is really It's gonna your metal more even even just a normal club. If you're a day gamer and you start trying to game in Tiger Tiger, you're gonna find it hard. And I was lucky to have that period with Rob Yeah. Because Rob wasn't a day gamer. He did a little Baxter, he did a little bit in Piccadilly Circus, but very quickly I was taken into a world that I don't like of strip clubs, of CD bars. Yeah. And then you're dealing with group sets, you're dealing with men, you're dealing with cock blocks, you're dealing with music, you're dealing with a buying temperature through the roof. Yes. You know that you gotta tap into within seconds. It's a weakness of daygamers that I'll admit to I think I said it on the Bexter podcast it's a one trick pony the guy goes I only do daygame I only front stop girls I only do single girls it's gonna encourage a lot of bad habits. Yeah. Just a lack of knowledge of the sexual marketplace that you just by leaning back in a strip club. Yeah. You're reading,

**Speaker 1:** you know, it's like reading an evolutionary textbook. Well, yes. And I mean so in torture gun and also Killing Kins, which as I said is a so Killing Kins is slightly different. So it's a it's a swingers club. It's a it's a it's it's an upmarket swingers club. So their tagline is for the world sexual elite. Now I'm I'm not quite sure why they let me in. I'm not based on that criteria, but nevertheless and actually, that that's overrating the pudding a a little bit. But nevertheless, you have to become a member. You have to send in a photograph. You have to be sort of reasonably presented to to get it. And and, basically, people go to those parties as as couples. You get guys and girls together, and then they'll swap or or single girls will go, and sometimes they'll let single guys in as well, which is which is usually when I go. And, you know, girls will will be there and they will have sex in the party because that's what they're that's they're there for, you know. So it's incredible that this stuff is is going on. But what you realize when you go to these places is it's not a free for all. And you're competing, particularly in London with, you know, the the the jacked, good looking,

**Speaker 0:** you know, rich, you know, all the rest of it. With with with these guys who are at the top of the The marketplace is everywhere. Guys that also are in video game communities or real nerd anime communities, they also don't realize that just because there's a girl in that community, she's still going for the best nerd. Yeah. There's always a totem pole. There's always pyramid. And in these clubs, it's acute because you're pretty much naked. Abs yes. Absolutely. And the girls are as well. So it's very it's very best deal. You can see the whole thing playing out. Now that's not to say,

**Speaker 1:** of course Game games do work. Game works. You know? So, you know, you can go into those venues and you can you can win if you like. You can go into the casino and you come You're approaching more? You're escalating more? You're isolating more? Yeah. Absolutely. You know, if you know what you're doing, you can go in and you can get success. But you're it's it's it's not a free for all. It's not guaranteed.

**Speaker 0:** And it it does show you very starkly the realities of the sexual marketplace because there are guys who go to those venues who don't have game and they're not, you know, they they they they they they're not particularly high value and they get nothing. The voyeurs there's a there's a voyeurism which is a topic for another day but that's a yeah you could say at the bottom of what we're talking about but it's it's of seedy and it's interesting yeah it but it's slightly like walking down the main road in Bangkok and you're like okay maybe that's Tom when he's 80 anyway I want to jump to something I can hear guys writing in the comment sections as they listen to the podcast slightly judgmentally perhaps when they say well you two lads Troy and Tom I mean you're speaking for yourselves you're just there's something wrong with you I think you boys have a sex addiction it's kind of shameful we're not like that I just want you know regular sex with regular girls I wouldn't do this. So, Troy, do you have a sex addiction? That's that's the question. And when we were talking about films like, you might remember this film called Shane or Don John. There are two films that start out with what we're talking about, guys that love sex in all forms. By the end of the film, they're completely shamed and they obviously settle down and stop misbehaving. So we're unsure whether to say this is an addiction because if you could see into men's minds right now in Paddington Station, it would be filth. Yes. Right? Yeah. No. A 100%. And I think

**Speaker 1:** I think the sex addiction trope is a narrative that society uses. And actually, lot of guys who get caught out use Oh, in order to Great great card to play. You know, if you're married and you you get caught out having affairs, then you can say, well, I've got a sex addiction. I need to go and get treatment for it. But is it is it because that sex addiction is an actual thing or is it just because you've a high sex drive because you're a guy? And, of course, you know, we know that there is a degree of shaming around male sexuality in the culture, so and all of that stuff. So, you know, I personally think sex is not addictive in the sense that an opiate is addictive or that is addictive. I think those things are real chemical addictions and clearly sex is not quite the same as that. Now I think sex can be compulsive. I think people can

**Speaker 0:** concentrate on it to the detriment of other parts of their life. That's the red flag. If there's a detriment to the other areas of your life your health your wealth your family your friends like your compulsion to gambling or sugar or whatever that yeah but but what we're talking about today ladies and gentlemen I hope there's some ladies listen to this is way more normal than the conservative chaps like to believe you know I'm sorry to break it to you if this is the podcast that breaks it to you but it's a way more normal than not so I think we're in agreement that it's partaking, reading about, doing these things does not mean you are odd that it's a sex addiction, that you need help.

**Speaker 1:** No. Absolutely. And I think you're I think you're right in that. I think if you if most guys were honest and you could you know, we would see that actually most guys have a very high sex drive or certainly they've got a very high desire for sex. Now whether they can achieve that, whether they can actually get the sex that they would like is is an is another matter. And, I mean, arguably, you could say guys who haven't learned game or or or have low value for whatever reason end up acting out on this stuff less because they they haven't you know they haven't obtained the tools in order In to do another way you know that quote I've said it before it's always the ones with the dirty hands

**Speaker 0:** that point point the finger. Yeah. So I'm more worried about the squeaky clean guys and we can take it to the extreme of a Catholic priest. I'm more worried about his expression of dark fantasies than a guy who's sitting in a swanner. Yeah. Because I admire that guy. I I actually admire the guy we were kind of laughing at you know the old dude who's just jacking off to the he's like fuck it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Fuck it. Yeah. At least he's not lecturing me on how wrong pickup is and you know how I should settle down. I love that transparency and that's what I coming full circle to when I discovered your writing. I thought thank fuck like it is time to say no I'm not embarrassed about my behaviors and actually I'm gonna talk about them. Yeah absolutely. I think that's true. And I think, you know, I for me, I think

**Speaker 1:** I've always wanted to, you know, I've always been a writer. I've always been interested in writing fundamentally as my main means of communication. And I think the the best writers have always been people who've been absolutely honest. I think you have to be honest about what you're going through and what you're experiencing. And the funny thing is that that chimes with more people than if you try to sugarcoat it or you try try to hide it. So I think what I'm doing with my blog is I am talking about what it's like to live this lifestyle in as honest a way as I can. And sometimes I think that I share too much. Other times I I I think I don't share enough and it's it's finding that balance and you know there's some vulnerability in It works if it's real and it doesn't work if it's you know sometimes engineered into people's they always want to engineer in the sub story

**Speaker 0:** that doesn't strike a chord but when you really feel like okay this is gritty that's why films like we were talking about Wolf of Wall Street, Scarface, Blow you know people are drawn to these characters why Because you recognize yourself in them. And it's not Of course, with the dark triad, dark tetrad stuff, there's a health warning. And even in street hustle, there's a whole page and the title of the page says health warning. Because you could take this podcast out of context and say I'm telling you to be Patrick Bateman, you know, I'm telling you to go proper dark arts iceberg slim. I'm not. You learn the elements that are useful to you. You go to the venues that amp up your game. But if it's starting to ruin your life and you're sitting in your room listening to the Smiths once again, cutting yourself, clearly you've gone too far in the dark triads and if it is affecting family and friendships, I've noticed that from heavy game periods. If you're really not seeing your mom or calling your dad or missing out on your sister's birthday, alright, you got to say woah woah woah woah woah. Accidentally, I've got girls into like adoring me but have I recognized that and damaged them? Yeah. And would I purposefully do that as a pimp? No. Yeah. So we're talking about quite a difficult sweet spot to amount to to find. Yeah. No. Absolutely. That's true. And it

**Speaker 1:** it really is finding that balance. And I think another really important thing. And Jenka Paul Jenka talks about this actually is having a a really good group of male friends that you can, you know, bounce ideas off, that you can touch base with, that you can hang out with. I found that in my life very, valuable because, you know, I I think as we were saying before, I think a lot of a lot of pickup artists, a lot of people who are into game who sort of dedicate their life to this stuff, they can be quite dark characters. And you need to find an outlet for that to prevent yourself from from going nuts, basically. So for me, I think I've come to a place where I can balance this stuff out quite well. So I can go to the I can I can go to the darker side at times, but, you know, I still you you know, by the same token, I've got I've got my friends? I've got my family,

**Speaker 0:** I've got, you know, I've got people that I can you know, that I talk to all the time. So it's sort of like You're into culture and travel and Yeah. Architecture and Yeah. You know, reading a normal book. And the common question is guys go, but I can't listen to any music ever again because Morris he's crying about I go I say man it's enjoy it enjoy that feeling of of vulnerability I mean come on you can listen to Brian Adams I do you can I listen to fucking Phil Collins sometimes when he's crying he's a beautiful man? He's very human and,

**Speaker 1:** you know, all great works of art are caused, you could say, by neediness and chodiness. It's it's yeah. It's a really that's a really interesting thing, isn't it? Because, I mean, yes, a lot of the music and and and books and everything that I've loved have been completely I mean, you would at it and say, mate, that is some blue pill shit. You know? And I still I still consume that stuff. And and and and You know, as you can recognize the difference. Yeah. I mean, I I also actually as a as a result of I also got really into hip hop actually as a result of game, as a result of RSD. I kinda got really into hip hop because I thought I need to be listening to something that's a bit more, you know Aggressive. That's bit more aggressive. But but ironically, what you find if you then when you go into hip hop, you listen to Jay Z and stuff. Actually, a lot of that stuff's really emotional as well. So The early stuff was pretty, you know, pretty good. But, yeah, now it's I've always been sanitized again. Yeah. Yeah. But, you I I I mean, look. I mean, there's a lot of beautiful parts in to life, and and art is is is one of them. And I think I I'm not gonna shut myself off from listening to something that might be deemed chody. I mean, I I can separate out the lyrics in a song from how I'm gonna behave. Know? I know that I because I know enough about the dark arts, you know, I know I know enough about how things how things are to sort of to sort of marshal my behavior in the right way. Doesn't That mean I'm gonna shut myself off from world literature and great music, you know, because, you you know, the the human condition we we all face this this question in the end. And, I mean, even even players face this question of what's the end game, you know. Is it, you know Players ask it more. Absolutely. You know? Do I continue with this life of promiscuity and, you know, random Hedonism. Hedonism forever, or do I get to a point where I try and settle down or or or try to find something a little bit more more stable? And that's something that I I ask myself. It's something that I question all the time. Every player does. We we often chat about black dragon

**Speaker 0:** who listen to that podcast, look at his blog. He's talking about a middle ground of an ex player kind of settling down but Yeah. La la la keeping it open. But these are all unanswered questions because the community has only existed for you know twenty years whatever in in this form alright let's finish with the price you pay for being a bachelor here on Valentine's day is those dark winter evenings. You're sitting in Berlin, you're sitting in London, you've got all the freedom you want. It's just you and your laptop. You can do whatever you want and all those married guys listening now are going, yes. Fucking yes. But you're open about it. I've said it many times especially in cold calling when I'm sitting alone in a Moscow apartment in December. Fuck me. You know, give me a gun. Yes. The price you pay is some loneliness. You like time on your own. I think you're an introvert like me. But there that you you pay a cost because you're not sitting today on Valentine's Day in a lovely Soho restaurant going to the theater, are you? With a girl. I'm not. Although, I might be taking my lady out later, but

**Speaker 1:** no. I'm not. Yes. It it's difficult. I think for me, I think what the the most important thing to me in my life is freedom, I think that's that's the key thing, and I have to keep coming back to that. And this is actually one of the, you you know, the the conundrums of life, I suppose, in a way, because I have to defend that freedom. And that's why I've that's why I've resisted marriage. That's why I've never been married at at age 43. I don't have kids. I don't now have a mortgage. You know, I don't I don't have a corporate job. So I've I've cut my ties with all of those things. But as you say, there is a price to be paid with that. And, you know, loan is is real, you know, and it's very easy to look at other people and to say, well, they've got this and that seems to be working and, you know, and and to think back on, you know, relationships maybe that I've had and that maybe could have gone further. But then I balance that against looking at

**Speaker 0:** the number you know looking at the realities of the world as I see it. Interesting that always comes in the evening doesn't it when you're bit tired or you're ill that if you've had depression it starts to come back and you think about that girl that you kicked out Yes. And we've all had three or four, one or two, you know, lovely girls that that played the marriage card with you and you think, what if, man? What if? Yeah. But then you wake up the next morning and I'm like, fuck yeah. Go and get a coffee. Do what you wanna do. Yeah. I like my own

**Speaker 1:** space. I like, you know, I I I am I think at base introvert, although I've learned certain extrovert traits. You know, I like to spend a lot of time on my own doing writing and and those things. Yeah. And that's not really compatible with a a relationship, and I have tried, you know. It's of the problems with long term relationships is that I think girls want a lot of time, they want a lot of attention, and if you're if you're somebody who's very who's quite driven and quite busy, and also, know, let let's be frank, you you like variety in your sex life, then it's very hard to reconcile those two things. And so it's sort of like, in the end, you you you know, you you have to make a choice, don't you? And at the moment, the choice that I've made is for freedom and to, you know, to to go down that route. And I don't see that changing, to be honest, because I think it's endemic in me. You know? Well, let's finish with this and talking about your books to be fair. When

**Speaker 0:** I met you or spoke to you, it was a few years ago and you were umming and ahing about at the time you had a corporate job, you were not just doing pickup writing and then again I thought our choice just one of these guys that he's emails me and says he's gonna do it and because every guy wants to quit their job and start traveling. And then the next time I heard from you, you said, I've done it. Quit my job is is you were probably in Berlin and then churning out content and then books are coming thick and fast and I'm that's impressive. Like Tom who we had on the podcast, the guitar teacher. Someone who just doesn't really talk about it but just knock us down and and and does it. So feel free, mate. What what books have you produced? What content is in the pipeline related to all this kinky stuff? Well, related to the kinky stuff. So I've got a book which is out today with Congratulations, brother. I I would shake your hand, but I'm fluy. Absolutely.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. So that's out today called 50 Shades of Game, volume one, and that is a book about the BDSM and fetish scene. Now there's gonna be three books in this series. So the second one is about the swinging scene, and the third one is about strippers and and strip clubs. Now this first one, is out today, it's got loads and loads of my kinkiest best stories about things that have I've seen or things that have happened to me in torture garden, dating kinky girls, dating girls into these all these crazy stuff. But it's also got a seven point plan for how you can meet and attract those women as well. So I've I've wanted to make it practical and to have a practical takeout from it. So if you're if you're interested in that scene, you wanna get into it. This is very much a sort of beginner's guide if you like because it all seems a bit freaky. It seems a little bit scary. It's got some caricature, didn't Yeah. Is it gonna be like that scene in Pulp Fiction with the gimp and all that kind of stuff? And it it it it's not at all. But well, it's It can be, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Many shades. 50 Shades. What a great brand. 50 Shades of Game. Is that a paperback book or is that a PDF or whatever? It's a it's an ebook and it's also out in paperback on Amazon. So if you go to Amazon and search Try Francis or 50 Shades of Game,

**Speaker 0:** you will find it and you can download it. So this is gonna be a trilogy? Yes. As most good things come in threes, my grandmother used to say. And previous books to this, are already

**Speaker 1:** out. Yeah. So another book that relates to what we've been talking about today is how to be an That Beautiful Women Love, which came out last year. Again, available on Amazon. So if you're interested in this thing about the dark tech trad or certainly the dark triad, the dark tech trad, and also radical differentiation, how you can make yourself stand out from other guys, then you'll really love that book. There's loads of information in there. And I think, you know, that's been my best selling book so far. Actually, I think it really resonated with guys because this stuff is really fascinating. Well, it's, you know, no more mister nice guy Yeah. Kind of topics are Yeah. Critical and crucial. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And my first book was called the seven laws of seduction, which is it basically lays out my approach to game in a very simple sort of user friendly way. So that's a good place to start if you're relatively new to game because it lays it all out in a very Does that include because I know you do or you used to do more than daygame. You did night game, obviously,

**Speaker 0:** online stuff. You're not averse to meeting girls anywhere.

**Speaker 1:** I no. I'm not. I mean, I I see it as being like a business where you have different revenue streams, I kind of think. And actually, somebody somebody talking about online game, I know you're not a fan of online game, and I I don't do it a lot. But It works. It works, man. But somebody said to me yesterday, it can be a good passive stream of girls if you're I mean, you have to be relatively in shape and everything. And I thought that was quite a nice way of of putting it. But, I mean, no. The Seven Laws of Destruction talks about day game, night game. It talks a little bit about online game, and it also talks about, obviously, you know, what to do on dates, your you know, how to text, you know, what, you know, what to do in the bedroom and all that kind of stuff. From a personal level, the way, these days, I'm mainly a day gamer because, you know, I'm in my forties. It kind of that's the model that works best for me. But Plans, you really have jumped ship, burnt your boats. There are no boats. There are no boats. I think the sea the sea sea's evaporated as well. There's there's there's there's nothing. Well, I love it. But but what's the plan? Is it to earn money from writing? Is it to travel more? Yeah. I both really. I mean, the planet is I've always wanted to be a writer, basically. And I spent a long time trying to go down a very traditional route with that. You know, getting novels published through traditional publishing houses and everything. And for for a myriad of reasons, the publishing industry is is is is buggered, like the music industry and everything else, and self publishing has become a massive thing. So I've I've found a way to to make a living through through writing content, and that's that's what I wanna do. But as part of that, I wanna travel. So I I'm getting my Russian visa, hopefully, today or this week. Again, so I'll be spending time in Russia, doing content from there. Eastern Europe, the likelihood is I'm gonna be based back in Berlin for a while. So what people will see if they go to my website, is realtrifrancis.com, where I post daily, by the way. So there's an ask a lot new ask a lot on there every day.

**Speaker 0:** There's gonna be a lot more content from, you know, particularly Russia and Eastern Europe going into, you know, the rest of this year. Good. And that ties in nicely to once again, if you want to train live with me, the only opportunity is either in Saint Petersburg with Mystery and Baxter or in Moscow. Click below on the link and Tore's details, not his bank account details and his address, but a lot of his details will be below. Let's see the time in the clock. It is over an hour, you lucky bastards. That was an hour of filth, and we had half of the pub. We're upstairs in a pub, and I I think they really enjoyed it. Particularly our waitress. Yeah. That waitress It's quite cute waitress. The Italians came up and stood there listening to The killing king. King's heart. Yeah. But, Troy, happy anti Valentine's Day to you. Happy Valentine's Day. It's been beautiful. And we plan, hopefully, if if Black Dragon comes to Europe, it would be wonderful to sit around a table and answer this still

**Speaker 1:** conundrum of something between pickup and Yeah. Quote unquote set Black Dragon's really good and guys should check him out because he's he does seem to have his middle way. He's leading the way on the middle way. Yeah. Which is between having some sort of stability, having regular girls, but also being able to to deviate from that. And, you know, I mean, if that can work I I'd be up for exploring that but it would be would be great. He's in the early stages of making it work and I've still not met him personally he sounded wonderful online

**Speaker 0:** but yeah that would be a topic and I'm sure we shall meet on the road indeed in style Jack but until next time you filthy horny bastards. Bye bye.