---
title: Episode 182 Bang It Out With Paul Janka
episode_number: 182
era: late
source_file: Episode 182 Bang It Out With Paul Janka.mp3
audio_size_mb: 77.4
duration_sec: 2536.8
duration_min: 42.3
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.990
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T17:09:56Z---

# Episode 182 Bang It Out With Paul Janka

**Speaker 0:** Thomas Torero podcast number a 182. Romantically entitled bang it out. So crank this one up. If you're at church or in the gym, you might want to put your headphones in. I am in London freezing my bollocks off. It's that damp cold rather than the dry Russian cold that I shall be experiencing tomorrow. I'm in the kitchen a luxurious so so how penthouse on paper. We're in the kitchen of Troy Francis. I say we because it's a threesome. It's a menage a trois with a packet of Jaffa cakes on the table. The special guest today is not for once, Troy Francis, although it's nice to see you, Troy. Nice to see you, Tom. Looking bizarrely fresh. You've just come back from Germany. What what's this? A fake tan or a bit of a bit of a bit of surgery? I've been lifting. I was I was lifting this morning. A facelift.

**Speaker 1:** You're looking at you. You're looking fresh. Thank you very much. No. I'm feeling fresh. Feeling fresh. Why why do you have a tan? I have a tan. A little bit of a tan. I'm sure. If I got a tan, that's a bit disturbing because it probably means there's something chemically wrong with me, which is not And your shirt noble. I was in but I was well, I was in Berlin the last few days, it was really cold. So I shouldn't Popped into a sauna. You had one of those Yeah. Spray tans. Yeah. One of those kind of saunas. That's that's That's that's

**Speaker 0:** implied, isn't it? When you say Berlin. We know Absolutely. We know your game, sunshine. And behind behind you is a is a is a CD neon light. So thank you for having us in your kitchen and I say we because today's special guest long time coming that's what she said it's probably been about eight years people have been asking for this podcast so it is the one the only the o g you could say of daygame. Certainly of across the pond daygame. It is mister Paul Danke. Hello, Paul. Hey, Tom. A pleasure to be here. This is long in the coming, so I'm excited to sit down with you guys. Yeah. Stop your innuendos.

**Speaker 2:** I was gonna I was gonna say at the beginning there when you said it's a threesome, that may be true. The three guys said, but actually, if we tallied all our conquests together, have we broken a thousand? I can I can contribute $2.50? Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** I was always two fifty was always the magic number for me to beat because I was that in getting your book getting laid in New York City? I was I wasn't there yet, but I was probably

**Speaker 2:** in the hundreds then. But I just figured between because you guys have been burning the torch much longer now than I have said. Must be I'm over three fifty. I don't think we're unless

**Speaker 1:** You're gonna say 600.

**Speaker 0:** I'm like

**Speaker 1:** No. We're probably not quite at the thousand mile in

**Speaker 2:** in perspective, isn't it? It's supposedly fucked, 20,000 women. And also fit Will Chamberlain and Fidel Castro apparently, like, 30,000 because he used to have entourage that would just comb the beaches in Havana and bring What about Genghis Khan? How many did we do? Genghis Khan. Yeah. Yeah. Also. That's the proper jade. King Solomon? King Solomon. Yes. So that just shows you how many a thousand women is. Because you have three, like, seasoned playboys here at different stages. I I'm retired, but still to we haven't broken a thousand bodies. So

**Speaker 0:** Well, broken bodies is this is a What a mental image. Title for the podcast. I I told you I needed backup for interviewing Paul. So you're you've been friends for a while. Yeah. We've known each other. Yeah. We've known each for how long? Probably Since I moved here. Yeah. When was that? Pretty much 2011.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Yeah. So it's been quite a few years. That was through Tinder or Grindr or It was through plenty of plenty of fish. They didn't have Tinder at that point. And Troy was at my wedding actually.

**Speaker 2:** Yes. That's right. So he's seen the whole downfall.

**Speaker 1:** The playboy crumble and losing his yeah. And becoming shackled into domestic That's very true because when we first met, you still have that sheen, you still have the new All kinds of sunglasses. Yeah. Swagger. White. Yeah. Dapper suit. Yeah. Yeah. What a white a white Gucci

**Speaker 2:** suit tuxedo with nothing underneath. Now I've got a punch and a fleece.

**Speaker 1:** It's got a fleece and a packet of Jaffa cakes. Yeah. So But but yeah. So so you were you were at that you were still at that sort of height. And then I saw over a few years that the downfall was around the until that that fateful day in France when you

**Speaker 2:** tied the knot. Hot. Fuck. Yeah. Yes. And I was with I was with that Polish girl at time. That's right. Yeah. We have a couple nights. And he was funny because he on social media, it's like a momentous day. Another has fallen. It was like a it was like a war memorial.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. It's a yeah. I think there was a two minute silence. It's bit like it's a bit like when Prince Harry it's a bit like when Prince Harry got married, isn't it? You know? Mhmm. You just have to bow your head for a moment and think, you know, another woman. Women weeping around the world. Well, Well, play Playboy's weeping to think another one's bit in the dust. You know? Yeah. I almost I almost cried at at the altar, and a friend of mine is at Playboy. He's not crying. He's crying because he's thinking about all the women he's not gonna have access to. I didn't laugh about that. But this we start where I was gonna end really with the elephant in the room because guys listening to this are aware that last week's podcast, Tom Torero was bashing on about non monogamy

**Speaker 0:** and I stand up in front of guys and say I'm not getting married, I'm not having kids and they all clap. It's a weird it's a weird form of celebration. Even my mom's kind of come around to the idea but that's the question people would want to ask you from from being a from being a daygamer, from smashing girls, from having a high sex drive. You joke about it, but but that's that's the question guys wanna know. The reality of one that for domestic life. Right? Yeah. Life after game. How and why?

**Speaker 1:** Perhaps why, you know, that It's like a prompt that it's like an essay prompt. You have three hours. Particularly particularly because somebody just tweeted me now. So somebody called beta male manifesto

**Speaker 2:** has just tweeted Sex is like sex is like food. So How would you I mean, so look, let's look at let's break it down into some look, on one level, of course, sex is like a bile biological urge. Right? Like using a bathroom or eating or sleeping, especially if someone is in tune with their sexuality. Very cardinal. Like lust is a full body experience. Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** So how I'm feeling you now.

**Speaker 2:** So yes, that's true. And if you strip away civilization and then I wanna circle back to the sex edom book because I do have I wanna hear your thoughts on something, Tom. But

**Speaker 1:** if you strip back

**Speaker 2:** civilization and the framework of like socialization, how we interact with other people and all, you strip on and you just reduce us to like our urges is sex, of course monogamy is doesn't make sense, right? I mean, a virile young guy wants to spread his seed and copulate with as many women as he can. And if you're experiencing can do well, you can just walk down the street like in New York or London, you can be turned on by number of women. So of course, the question of the question though is, if you've had a good run and you've done that, the problem is it can be a trap because if you just indulge in your urges, like, you it's hard to build anything that requires restraining those urges. It's the same thing like discipline with work or discipline with food or exercise or anything like if we just indulge in the impulse in a way it's hard to build or grow and I I don't know if you Well, I suppose Sharp and take your breath there from Troy Fellows.

**Speaker 0:** He's sitting up erect. I mean, I fell off my chair. Blood boiling now. He's in a rage. You indulge in degeneracy, Troy?

**Speaker 1:** Frequently, yes. Absolutely. And I suppose that I don't mean jaffricates. I mean, something Yeah. Well, that's that's the hardest thing I could get before I met you guys today. But well, I no. I hear what you're saying, Paul, but I suppose what I've been thinking through recently is, okay. Yes. It can get repetitive, and you you've done it so many times and everything else. But does there have to be an endgame? Does there have to be an end point? Because couldn't you argue that somebody is is still growing even if they just remain single and shag around for the rest of their life? They're still having different experiences. Their life is it doesn't look the same as a married guy's life, but it would be incorrect, wouldn't it, to argue that they are not growing in some way? Because I think any experience is gonna allow you to grow. No. I agree with that. I I guess I was saying

**Speaker 2:** if you decide in my case, for example, I I always knew I wanted to have a family and children. I wanted offspring for sure. Like, although it wasn't I was telling a friend of mine who's actually having a struggle with making this decision in The States. He called me yesterday. He's having a bit of a dilemma. When I was younger, I I wasn't like a proactive thought. I wanna have children. I never had that, but I always assumed that I'd follow the default course. I'd have a wife and and kids, a kind of and I think if you want there's there's certain things that you need to keep in check if you want, like, for example example, like extramarital sex or monogamy. Like, the if you want that type of outcome, like the nuclear family with a wife who's Yeah. With children. But I'm not saying that's the only way to grow or build. You can grow in the arts. You can build financially and business. There's a lot of other but for family family formation formation and children and, like, a harmonious relationship with one other person, generally speaking, I don't know if there's any other really viable models Mhmm. Aside from, like, marriage or long term cohabitation and monogamy. So if if if that's a goal of somebody's, then then so to answer your question, I think for me in my purse that goal and and that that comfort partner and that that over that overrode the adventure and the excitement and novelty of the new girl. But also, I didn't keep in mind, I didn't sell dental. I I got married at 40. So you had a good run. I mean Yeah. Yeah. I think particularly young guys who get hitched, I mean, I think that can be really a disaster, scary, unless they have, like, institutional or religious, you know, guidepost that really keep them in line. But I you know, for me, my decision was I I I I wanted that, and I do I I like the cozy pipe and pipe robe and pipe and slippers life and and playing with my daughter and, you know, you know, choosing the in together for the for the week and like man managing the household and looking at I'm pretty I I find that cozy and stuff like but it's not it doesn't have the thrill of the chase. You've been having the cozy pipe and slippers life in the van, haven't you? In the I have. Well, just in Cyprus. I was there with my mom and a elderly friend, and it was very cozy.

**Speaker 0:** Yeah. Yeah. This feels like I'm the referee in a boxing match here. In the left corner, it's monogamy against number one. Think we disagree. I think we I I think I agree with with Troy. It's just that there's

**Speaker 2:** many different ways to express it's and I I was counseling my friend. I said, look, I I'm not gonna give you advice. There's no universals. Like, I absolutely love being a father. I said at the beginning, if if banging hot chicks is like a four, like, having a my time with my daughter is like a 200, which is a crazy thing to say. But it's like, it's such pure unadulterated joy, like, I've never felt. And some parents will tell you that. And but other other fathers say that having kids, if not a mistake, it's been difficult, it's been a burden, it's this and my friend was asking. He says, I've talked to other people, and they say they kind of wish they didn't have kids because it's like it's distracted him, it's it's worn him down, it strained his marriage, he doesn't have as much sex with his wife, he can't get his business done. And so they they don't find that the parenting that exciting. Yeah. So there's no universals.

**Speaker 0:** Yeah. To think in binaries, people wanted this podcast. People that I told about us. I was gonna meet Paul, gonna meet Paul and do a podcast. They said, well, you gotta, you know, bash it out. Who's gonna win? And it's a I say, yeah. The a more interesting point, more new one nuanced point rather than this binary should the player settle down or not is

**Speaker 2:** is this age when you'd made the jump, made the decision, 40. Was that right? I got married at 40. But when did you stop the I started the I mean, we kind of The daygame. Met in the thirties when I was, I think, 33, but we were the first couple of years, it was very casual. And then when I moved I moved over here in 2011, so I was 36 or 37.

**Speaker 0:** So then then I would kinda was retired by then. So Why we called it banging out is because a more interesting question perhaps for a guy listening who's 20 or 25, and he's got ten ten bangs, maybe twenty. And often quoted on the Internet is that you should have 30 bangs before you get engaged and settle down. The last time I met you, I think we agreed immediately that 30 bangs just before you start, that's ridiculous to understand women, to tick off all your little fetishes of fantasies and Too low. Too low. Yeah. So I I I I'm 50 until you hit 50, don't look back.

**Speaker 2:** So I mean, because women are the there's so much machination and I think women, the subtle art of manipulation, deception, I mean, master this, some women. And I think to to stand your ground as a man, you've gotta sort of bang through all that, as we said, bang it out. Until you know where you stand, and you can take it or leave it, you can you can kinda see get a a read of the landscape. And that takes a because, basically, you have to you have to get past the point where sex is, like, all that great, and, like, it rocks your world to such a degree that you'll do anything for the girl. And and you have to have a number of hot chicks under your belt that you banged, and you see that they're just like everyone else. And so you're not basically, the the intoxicating power of lust for a young guy is very dangerous because he doesn't see straight in terms of his own interests. Yeah. So you gotta bang through that until you kind of it's like mustard gas until you and, bro, when you're standing, you're you're standing there, you can see the enemy.

**Speaker 0:** You were 33 when you when you first considered

**Speaker 2:** Well, I was I was in my mid thirties when I I I I kind of and I I met basically, I met a girl that I didn't wanna pass on because she, for me, ticked all my boxes. And I was kind of the writing was a bit on the wall. And actually, as I told Troy in an earlier interview, in a way, my men forced my hand because I had a good coterie of like minded guys. I used to run around in my late twenties and early thirties. So it it was fun, and women were very disposable. Like, they were for banging and nothing else, my love and my fraternity and my consistency came from my men. We would see each other once a week. We'd out to dinner. We'd to the movies. We'd smoke cigars. No bangs with the men. No bangs. Not in the they weren't in the two fifty. And and, actually, yeah. I'm so glad that you guys have have a little brotherhood here. But from in in New York, my experience was that a lot of my good quality male friends started to fall away. And I kind of so then I felt like quite like a lone wolf walking in the canyons of Wall Street. And I just thought, like, alright. It's harder to access these men now. They have girlfriends. They live in Brooklyn. They they don't they're not available at a drop of a hat. And I I kinda saw well, that's where this is going. Like, more and more people go into their pods, men. And and and so

**Speaker 1:** but maybe there's a second generation as you've, I think, mentioned that either divorced men or men who hold out. You got and then you there's a there's a new band of brothers that you find in your mid forties. I don't know. Yeah. I think one thing that we all agree on is how important that is to have because you've talked to Tom about affection, haven't you? And, of course, affection can come from women, but also equally, it can come from your friendships with with guys. And I think, you know, what you're saying about having a band of guy friends who you're very close to, you can talk to and everything is really, really important. But the one thing I wondered was you've always said, you know, it it it sort of it thins out as you get older. It gets a bit more ropey and, you know, and everything else. And I I that's true to a degree. But do you think maybe now with social media the way it is, with the Internet the way it is, there's a possibility of guys getting together on a more global level because, I mean,

**Speaker 0:** I'm not talking about grind up. Just pop into GA White. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Escalate very quickly, I've heard. Do you think there's a possibility of a big daisy chain of guys, like, getting That's

**Speaker 0:** an that's a niche. Yeah. Yeah. But,

**Speaker 1:** yeah, you know, I think I think what we found is that there is a community.

**Speaker 0:** It has changed. People people were probably if you're into old school game, not not implying you're old, Paul, but back in the day, we had to like it was like nudge nudge wink wink. People had to hand round copies of getting loaded in New York. That's how I how I find you, you know, pirated copies or whatever. Sorry, Paul. But it was all very it was very scattered and very there was no nucleus. And the crowd then was

**Speaker 1:** relatively

**Speaker 0:** eccentric as well, wasn't it? Let's be honest. It was the early days of game. People people hadn't really put everything together and the Internet allowed that. So now if you walk around Union Square, Washington Square, Leicester Square, you you're gonna see guys and as you said interestingly some of them are now in their forties and we were thinking it is 40 the end and I've been living with guys that are in their fifties and that are doing them and that are banging gills in their thirties so Yeah. They're like the canaries in the coal mine. So when you said 33, I just remember that my kind of my best or my most enjoyable, my dirtiest year of game was I was about 37, I think. Mhmm. When I feel like I really peaked in my

**Speaker 2:** not in my game, but in my horniness. I know I left money on the table. Yeah. I was 33 is quite early to walk away, but you had banged it out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I think I kinda let put the sword down finally, maybe when I was 35 or something. I have to look at the actual actual date, but that I was forced to commit. But I what what I will say Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** The the beginning of World War one or, you know, you know, fallen soldiers. Imagine you know why. So but

**Speaker 2:** yeah. No doubt. I mean, I remember I was I was still getting when I sort of went into domestic life and monogamy, I was still getting so much attention from girls. Like, I was really at the peak of my game and sort of my seduction power. So I left money on the table. And as I was just commenting before, Troy, you look you guys are looking great. So you could have another I mean, however long your run is I mean, so to your point, it's extended. It's just the other thing too is I I increasingly find that I'm sort of an unusual that being getting married in the nuclear family and having children and going through that whole sort of traditional post war, I'm increasingly the anomaly,

**Speaker 1:** especially among young younger people. Think that's the case though? Because we are finding online a lot of guys who are taking quite a traditional conservative view towards

**Speaker 2:** In in their ideas or do they act on it?

**Speaker 1:** Some of them, I believe, are acting on it. But certainly in their ideas, there does seem to be a shift in the men's space online towards talking about, oh, but you shouldn't be banging these sluts. You know, you should settle down and do the right thing and get married and everything else. It's almost come full circle. It's quite easy. Going through a weird phase of the community where

**Speaker 0:** banging is not very popular anymore. Troy and I Troy and I are. Wasn't it based on bang? Exactly. It's weird. Yeah. I'm constantly justifying

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. With a bang and guys are saying, but really, you know, come on now. But they will they will say things which I think it'd be interesting maybe to get your perspective on because they will say things like, you your life is meaningless if you don't finally do the right thing and commit or you you you know, and that's alongside all the other stuff. You'll be a lonely old man and you'll die on your own in a nursing home and all that, which is Quite a bit. It's also got a religious connotation then. Yeah. I mean, as I say, keep coming back to this phrase, do the right thing. It's it seems to be very much based in this as if there is this prescribed behavior that one should really be adhering to. And I I would take issue with that. I think if by choice, I think if you do what you want. But would you agree that there's not

**Speaker 2:** I find that interesting that like moral crusaders have like invaded.

**Speaker 1:** We're

**Speaker 2:** we're we're perplexed. The manosphere.

**Speaker 1:** What the hell? I Yeah. We're we're trying to we're the immoral crusaders who are trying to fly the flag for us.

**Speaker 0:** You had told me that five years ago that I'd be talking to daygamers about coming to Christ, I'd to go what the fuck? But it's very popular. Yeah. Maybe because enough guys have banged it out perhaps they have or perhaps they say they have and people are searching for the next thing but I'm I'm with I have to say I'm with Troy in that I when someone says to me Tom what's your endgame I I see judgment in that as if it's okay to bang around for a little bit but Tom come on now you know when when you just moral judgment. And okay, if you come from a religious background, I accept that. I certainly accept if you if you have kids, if you want kids, and I was a school teacher so I taught many many kids and my sister has many many kids. So yeah, if you have kids then I I I see that nuclear family structure but if you if you can get to the point where you think, actually, I don't want kids,

**Speaker 2:** and I'd wanna pursue a passion, and I I want a lot of time for that. I think there's a lot of ways to make meaning. I mean, you don't just have to make meaning through family. I mean, to the gay community, for example, prior to adoption or whatever when that, you know, that sort of is happening now maybe. But let's ten years ago, I mean, to that's basically the same kind of homophobic

**Speaker 1:** argument, like, the gay's life is not worth anything because they don't procreate. I mean, that's that's Well, I mean, you look at somebody like Francis Bacon, the painter who spent a lot of his time just down the road getting drunk and, you know, and created some of the great painting, the great British artwork of the twentieth century. He was gay, but he so he he never had children. But are we to say his life was meaningless because of that? Well, I I mean, in in some ways, you could say his life was more meaningful than than the many patriarchs, in inverted commas, who who had children, but, you know, have a completely forgotten because he's created something lasting that's gone down the generations.

**Speaker 0:** But, yeah, people people again make it binary. They misunderstand what I'm saying. Even last week's podcast has perhaps got the most emails after last week's podcast because I basically said, look, guys. I I just don't think humans are monogamous obviously some guys took issue with that got upset with that guys very invested in that so and if you're thinking about marriage but they thought I was saying pump and dump forever just smash never see her again when I always talk to you don't I Troy about everyone needs affection we're not we're not designed to be alone if you don't have a group of male friends certainly I spend a lot of time with women you know I'm forever evenings out with girls so I feel like I have these little like a diver coming up for air. I have these bubbles of affection. So I don't get them from one girl, but I'm certainly not recommending to a guy to go out there into the desert alone. Just pumping that forever. It's certainly gonna leave you feeling

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Confused. Yeah. Because I think people do think it's this very nihilistic thing where you're just this clinical kind of Well, it's either or. They think it's either marriage and kids or pump, get her out. Yeah. Sit there in your pants. Yeah. They don't they don't see at all that the life of a player is actually pretty busy. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And and as you say, I mean, you you have to have affection. You have to have companionship. You have to find ways to build that in. Meaning and connection. Yes. Absolutely. The other thing I think is that people make mistake is that they they point to, like, this ideal of marriage and kids, these moral

**Speaker 2:** a lot of marriages go tits up, and the kids can be kids can be, for a number of reasons, such heartache if a kid is born unhealthy, or you can there's tragedy. You lose a child, or a marriage falls apart. So I mean, that's why this whole binary thing is silly. There's so many different, almost individual personal journeys.

**Speaker 1:** Well, I suppose I suppose the contention I guess, Tom or the the the sort of direction I think Tom's coming from, which I would probably come from myself, is that monogamy is inherently Restrictive. Right? Well, in or inherently not really what really natural to us as human beings. How not to say you can't do it, and that's not to say you can't make it work. You can override it. I mean, my Sorry. But given that there's an inherent problem with monogamy itself, that makes marriage challenging, let's say, which is why the marriage you know, the divorce rate is is is so high both here and and interestingly, even in Eastern European countries in the former Soviet Union It's higher. It's higher. Yeah. Even in these really conservative countries. So something's clearly not working, and people will say, oh, yeah. But you've just got a screen to get the right girl or you've just got to work harder to make it work and everything. But for me, I take a step back. The problem seems to be more fundamental than that. The monogamy itself is I'm curious to you. I mean, look, I maybe I'm a a guinea pig or a litmus test for I don't I don't believe in monogamy, and I also don't think it's natural. I think biologically,

**Speaker 2:** we're meant to spread our seed, but I'm married and I'm faithful to my wife. You can if if if it's if the if the superstructure and what it gives you, in my case, is more important, you can override those urges. And actually, I think the sex the the the percentage or or the sexual component of marriage is actually not that big in a lot over the long term. It's more like someone once said, I think it's great, it's like running a small nonprofit. It's about logistics, and who's doing the shopping, and his rent in the account, and who's picking up the so if you like that, and you like to have children, and you like the coziness, I said in our interview, the witness. One nice thing about my wife and I is we have, like, ten years of memories that we can call on, and there's a continuity there that I really value. That supersedes any, like,

**Speaker 1:** lust. Yeah. But it's certainly it's it's a decision that you have to make. Yeah. It's something you have to and it and then it's something that you have to almost actively work on to Yeah. To to ensure continuity

**Speaker 0:** rather than I think what some people would some people are trying to argue that it's just it's just the natural default state. And if you just That's Or even even worse that it's like the hanging hanging up your boots stage. Like, you know Yeah. You could put gain takes a lot of work, chasing women takes a lot of work, and finally, there'll be this mythical moment when you can lie back with a pipe and marriage will just take care of itself. You know? And people forget that I was married. I was married. Did you know that Paul? No. No. I was married. Maybe you said that for how long? Eight times.

**Speaker 1:** I was married for two and a half, three years. When

**Speaker 0:** I was I was 19. When I got married. I got married to Oxford. What? So that part when guys ask me about long term relationships, and they're in their twenties, coming back to the title of the podcast, I say, mate, you're in yet you're 22. I'm like, come on. Bang it out. Learn the full colors of the rainbow and certainly tick off all the things you wanna tick off and don't really come back to me until you're past 30. I often say to guys 35. I think, you know, of course. Because you shouldn't if you're listening to this podcast and you're you're 20 and you're considering these pretty deep serious questions, you got a lot of time. Yeah. I would suggest Yeah. Going on a on a bang will tour. Just get fucking get it out of your system. I'm I'm absolutely in favor of marriage for men who have reached the age of 70. I think that's I think that's absolutely

**Speaker 1:** fine. I think if by 70, you know yourself, you know what you want. You're Rolling Stone. The Rolling Stone's model. Exactly. Exactly. You 20 have five year old nurse who can work the CPAP and

**Speaker 2:** the adjustable bed. Exactly. We have a friend who's who's married five times. Yeah. We do. Yeah. That's Yeah. He really gave it a go. He said he wasn't afraid of merit. It's an interesting stat that many have been married are more likely to get married again, even if it was a disaster. Is that right? So maybe you're a a

**Speaker 1:** contender. But the I mean, you know, the affection side of it. I can see why people like the idea of it. Because the affection side of it is appealing because as we've as you've said, it's, you know, affection addiction. Guys, beyond say It's necessary. It's necessary. It's it's necessary, and it's also really, you know, it's also really nice. Let's be honest. However, all too often, you see guys going into marriages, and maybe they're not quite suited, or something goes wrong or it's just because monogamy itself is problematic and they end up breaking up. So it's not this panacea that cures everything, is it? Of course.

**Speaker 2:** Mean, I think if I'm if I'm I'm being candid on this podcast, but if I'm totally honest, what I like about being married is like, I can go home and like, I can hear about what my wife did for the day, or I can, like, unpack the shopping with her, or, like, we chose our couch together. We have a pink couch, and, like, we get it. Or I can buy I can buy, like, a wool blanket, and I know she'll get excited being under, and we could watch a movie to get, like, all these, like, cozy things. It it doesn't have the electricity of of a new girl, you know. For for guys who think I mean, you should definitely get all your thrills out of the way before you get married. It's a it's a it's a very marriage is like a quite a sedate kind of comfortable cozy

**Speaker 1:** thing. What do you think so there's this different sort of school of thought around this, which is a bit more along the lines of, okay. Well, if you you can have kids if if you want, but you don't necessarily have to be a living father. You know, you could impregnate a girl here, a girl here, blah blah blah. A Genghis Khan model, that is. Genghis Khan game. So could could that work? Because I think for me, one of the issues with the whole thing is domesticity, really. I find I mean, I know what you mean about those things being nice. You love it, Troy. See, really. This is a the guilty secret of players. On a sim.

**Speaker 2:** Yes. That's right. I don't think that because look. There there's a fundamental thing I should say is that you you lose your men, young men thrive on autonomy, and and the freedom and the independence of spirit, and that is all clipped. When you get married, that's over. Like, if you value autonomy and making decisions unilaterally and doing what you want, like, until you're ready to hand that over, you shouldn't be getting married because you'll be so frustrated. Because what are the three things you say Yeah. You lose three major things when you get married. You lose autonomy over your dick, obviously, as long as you're faithful, but every guy will get caught if he's not, eventually. You lose autonomy over your wallet, because purchasing decisions are generally made together. And you lose autonomy, which is actually the worst, the hardest, over your schedule, because you don't have freedom of movement. You can't you coordinate. And then when you have child Then when you have a child, you have to, like it's even more more the logistics are even more intense because there's a helpless person to look after. So, like, I can't I can't make unilateral that many unilateral choices in my life. So but I I was like I said, I was 40. I had done that. I'd lived a single life and and I was ready for that. I the trade off for me made sense, but it This this is the caveat. If you're listening to this and it's all sounding

**Speaker 0:** you're thinking, fuck. Yeah. I knew it. You see? Tom Torero is one. You sell that. You're forgetting sitting in the kitchen with us is Paul Jenkin if you're new to game you should just Google the OG videos Paul we've not I'm not really given any background on Paul in this podcast because I'm assuming you know who Paul Jenkin is but if you don't it's a good read getting laid in New York just go back to the origins of US daygame or London daygame so for for someone who's been in the trenches done what he wanted to do and more and some more that's a perfectly rationalable reasonable decision but don't you send me an email now if you're listening to this and you're 22 and you think, see Tom?

**Speaker 2:** See, I told you I've got six notches and I'm done. I fought in two world wars and now I'm like in my country estate with my hounds, you know, that's it. Done seeing the battlefield. It's a caveat. You have to you have to go into battle and get your hands dirty. Troy's looking Troy's Troy's got into deep thought. You can't wait you can't wait to be air dropped.

**Speaker 1:** I'm gonna be lying. She's telling still off. Again. Shocking again. Shoot. Well, we're well, we're we're yeah. We're off to Russia tomorrow. So we're Talking about behind enemy lines. Absolute well Yeah.

**Speaker 2:** We got we're going to the the front again, aren't we? To the the freezing the freezing front line. I will say though about your thing about having I mean, dealing with one woman, meaning my wife, it's is fucking difficult enough and a headache. Like, the idea of having several mothers of my kids who are unconnected and the I mean, people anyone who's actually in that situation, they'll turn on Jerry Springer or one of shows. It's a fucking nightmare. I mean, dealing with the drama. I think the caveat to it is you've got a shitload of money. So Okay. If you'll just silence people with with cash and Well Or you you create enough insulation so that their banning doesn't reach you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just this model of the rather than

**Speaker 0:** this idea of the father being this person who's there, you know, twenty four seven or week and they're building dolls houses with their door It's all very well to say that on Twitter though, but I think the reality is when you got a child in your arms. Yeah. You know, it's it's one I I would only I think we're talking about this last time. I don't take life advice from people in their twenties and I don't take I don't listen to people talking about marriage and kids unless they are married with kids. You know, it's very popular especially on places like Twitter to talk a lot about getting married, settling down, having kids. None of those guys are married with kids. It's hypothetical. It's hypothetical what I would be like as a father, what it might be like if I'm not a player but Paul's sitting here married with kids. Mhmm. I I wanna see a guy putting his money where his mouth is. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like a guy who's a player. You're like, well, okay. Mhmm. You got to have lived that lifestyle to be able to really talk about it. So I think another thing for me was like,

**Speaker 2:** I I certainly subscribe to this idea, but doesn't have to be marriage, but that each sort of decade of life or sex you should try to stretch a little. So I had kinda done the playboy, bang it out kind of thing. So I this is a different phase here. Fatherhood. So it could have been I could have been you know, there there was a very years ago when I was just getting serious with my my then girlfriend, there was a moment when I was gonna take a different path. And I instead of moving to London, was gonna move to Barcelona because I like to paint. And I was gonna do the Vicky Christina Barcelona thing. And I had money till I was gonna get a atelier, and I was gonna let and just bang, like, the tourists who came through and the Spanish girls, and paint, and let and smoke cigarettes, and eat tapas, and just have my balls hanging up. And just I could've put up I could've that that there could've been some incredible memories in that in that The period. Yeah. And pain and and but I decided I didn't my my now wife wouldn't have waited around, I don't think. So I didn't do that, but that could've been also a very in a different way, a very satisfying period.

**Speaker 0:** Yeah. What's your next phrase, Troy? Sex change sex change or The Nabokov phase.

**Speaker 1:** The Nabokov phase in Nabokov lived in Berlin for a period of time. Oh, there you go. Yeah. But he was from?

**Speaker 0:** He was from Saint Petersburg. Burg. Yeah. So why? Connecting the dots. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. You might be entering a new phase, Troy, not in terms of a sex change, but you might be possibly

**Speaker 1:** Possibly. Going deeper in Berlin. Is that right? Yeah. Because I think Berlin is a sort of spiritual home for me in a way because it's so decadent and debauched over Is it less judgmental than Britain? Well, it is because but the funny thing about Berlin, right, is that on the one hand, it's very liberal. So you've got that whole that whole thing and that's why some sort of conservative voices disapprove of it because you've got all the green haired people there and all all of that. The mullets. Yeah. But it's also very, very debauched and naughty and dirty. And it has been for for many, you know, for for centuries, really. And the liberal side hasn't pushed down the the filth. The filth is still there, and there's lots of it. So I just feel like from a philosophical point of view, it's it fits very well for me to sort of immerse For

**Speaker 2:** you debauchery is a philosophical endeavor. I love often talk about No. Opposite opposite. I was at this trip joint because I was contemplating no. It's not what it looks like. It's a PhD. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** No. Absolutely. Well, I mean, I I think it is a philosophical position in a sense because, you know, you get a lot of people who's who have this idea that you there's a duty, that there's some sort of duty within life. You should be doing this. You should be doing that. You should be a family man. And I reject the notion that it's a duty. I think of where where is the where is the finishing line? It does it doesn't exist. Well, it's finishing on this podcast because we've over time. Final

**Speaker 0:** thoughts. Paul Jank.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. I think every individual should do what they want. I think you should have, you know, the the more experience you build up, it'll change your perspective on different choices, I think the things I thought at 20 and the choices I had are different than I had 30 or different at 40 or different at 50, and so I don't think there's any normative stuff like one should do this or shouldn't do that. And there's many different ways to make meaning. And I think actually in a way we're moving towards the site where many alternative lifestyles quote unquote alternative are more acceptable. In other words, not settling down, continue to be a bachelor, you know, so I I think in a way,

**Speaker 1:** it's a good time to be a playboy, isn't it? Final thoughts, Toy Fan? I think he's yeah. Absolutely. It's a great time to be a playboy. The the the road is wide open. Yeah. I just think, essentially, live and let live, really, to be honest. I mean, I I got no issue with people being monogamous or not. What I do have a bit of an issue with is people that take a very moral high ground about it because I just think it's I think the position is incoherent, and I I also think it's there's too much judgmental

**Speaker 2:** from people too too much judgmental behavior from people who are Might be, you know, veiled jealousy. It's like, I gotta fuck the same old hag and you're gonna do it too. It's like, come join the miserable lot. There could be some of that. Mean, people must be envious that you you got I mean, this traditional nuclear there's a lot of responsibility and and monotony can be monotonous, and you guys have avoided that. You you you could be banging 23 year old Russian girls in a couple days, you probably will be. And, like, with unencumbered, I mean, there's probably envy and jealousy there too.

**Speaker 0:** But coming back, to wrap it all up with a nice bow. I say do what you want and I usually my Skype calls finish with like that and the guy's like, well, that's not very helpful. But I say, look, if you've got it out of your system, then sure. Go off. Comes back to happiness, what makes you happy. I always quote a friend I've got from school, he's never left the town, he's in the same pub, he sits on the same seat, he married the girl from school but when I sit down with him and have a beer, he's genuinely happy. Happy because he's slightly naive, he's never left Wales, God bless him. So yeah, personal happiness, you can't really argue with a man and I agree with you Tore, you shouldn't lecture another man. If a guy's out there banging and he's happy, good on him. If a guy's there raising four kids, know, solid

**Speaker 2:** Christian household, good on him. It's the judgment that's the the issue. And there's also personality composition too. I think they've they've done studies. People are operate within a pretty narrow band of happiness based on their constitution. So like a miserable fucker, you could he could he's gonna be miserable in any circumstance. And a happy go lucky guy, you can put him in, like you said, and may he just be happy. You know? So I think a lot is out of our control. Yes. Our disposition. And on that note, we we

**Speaker 0:** we were about to say goodbye, but what has Paul Jenka been doing since I I I last saw you Paul actually. The last time I saw you well, not not counting before Christmas was years ago in in the old daygame house in Marble Arch, a house of sin,

**Speaker 2:** filth, literally metaphor metaphorically, a filthy house. Take one of those x-ray things across. No.

**Speaker 1:** You know how that that that what are they? The no. It's it's it's it's ultraviolet light across

**Speaker 2:** the carpeting just to see Across the sofas. Oh. Yeah. What have I been doing? What have you been doing for the I think almost almost ten years? Yeah. Getting married, having a baby, building businesses, pipe and slipper kind of stuff, getting settled into London, reading a lot of good novels. I like when off mic, we talk about literature, the three of us. So, yeah, just enjoying my life and and and trying to be productive. I was certainly saying, is there anything you'd like to plug? No. No. Never. I have. I First guess, it's never plugged. Even Troy Francis plugs away. Yeah. I have a new for those of you who are crazy enough to wanna take the plunge, have a new course on how to select the right woman for marriage so it doesn't fail, how to five steps to the altar to make sure you hit all steps so you don't screw your marriage up, and what life being married is like, and and thoughts about how to approach fatherhood and and about having a kid. It's called No Man Left Behind. And just Google it, and you can find it. It's a great course. Guys love it.

**Speaker 0:** Co written by Tom Torero. There's

**Speaker 2:** a there's plenty of hot fiery stuff for guys whose engines are revved about some I teach a new concept that I haven't taught anywhere else called DNT, decision node theory, that we'll talk about when we're off tape a little bit. It's very interesting stuff. And then I I it's really good for guys in their thirties who wanna think about settling down and I can kinda spell out the pitfalls and the roadblocks and stuff. Very nice choice. Sounds like you'll be buying a copy. Absolutely.

**Speaker 1:** Did will you teach me how to meet a low quality girl?

**Speaker 2:** You should have like a time locked membership that doesn't open until you're 60. And then on your sixtieth birthday, it's boom. You're in.

**Speaker 0:** Troy, anything you'd like to plug?

**Speaker 1:** Well, I have got a new book that's gonna be coming out soon on the very topic of monogamy and non monogamy. So there'll be some more news on that coming up in the near future. Beyond that, I'm not sure really. Well, I've got my monthly subscription. There it goes. Hang it out. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've got my monthly subscription product, which is available now. So it's a PDF and a video, which comes out every month. You can I'll maybe Tom will link to it, or you can go to my website and have a look, but that will so that's gonna be basically stories from the month or stories of things that have happened to me in terms of game, in terms of dating, in terms of girls, and then a breakdown of the specific game techniques that I've used in order to get those results. So it's a great package.

**Speaker 0:** You're gonna love it. It's a it's a full package. It's a very, very full package. We'll with that. I've got absolutely nothing to plug, nothing to flog. It's the first time ever. You just rip everything, you cheeky bastards. Right? That was podcast episode a 182. God bless you. Thank you. Paul Janker and Troy Francis. Goodbye. Bye bye. Bye bye.