---
title: Episode 27 Interview With Rollo Tomassi
episode_number: 27
era: early
source_file: Episode 27 Interview With Rollo Tomassi.mp3
audio_size_mb: 84.9
duration_sec: 2781.3
duration_min: 46.4
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.994
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T17:14:20Z---

# Episode 27 Interview With Rollo Tomassi

**Speaker 0:** Alright, you sexy bastards. This is Tom Torero, podcast 27. Get in there. Now you might be listening on YouTube or because of the wonders of technology, you might be downloading this stuff from iTunes. Finally, all the podcasts are on iTunes. I'm keeping up with the kids. I've got my Instagram going. I've got my Twitter going. Look at me. I'm getting on the social media horse. Or you could say the donkey. I'm learning to ride the donkey first of all. All the links are below on each of my YouTube videos now so you can keep tabs on me. I won't be doing podcasts for the next thirty days, so there's a bit of a summer break. You can catch up on the old ones. But I will be putting out some vlogs, not daily vlogs but consistent vlogs from my travels, certainly one in each city. So you can see some global street hustle, global flow mad, tomfoolery stuff. You can meet some fellow street hustlers. It's gonna be good. If you wanna come to the free talks, like I said last time, just go over to tomtorero.com and all the dates and the places are there and it lets you know how to reserve a seat. First one's this Saturday, Saturday the eleventh of July in Central London. Alright. Without further ado, let's dive in to today's podcast which is another Skype interview. Forgive two in a row. But I couldn't resist when I got the opportunity to interview the one, the only, famous red pill blogger and author, Roosh Tomasse. And we have a good old matter about the evolutionary biology underpinning game.

**Speaker 1:** Alright. On the line from California dreaming, West Coast America is Rolo Tomasi. Alright, Rolo. Hi. How are you doing? I'm good, man. It's morning for you. Saturday morning. Yes. On the July 4. July 4. Yes. Yeehaw. I seem to do all of my, my interviews on either my birthday or holidays. That's very patriotic of you. I hope you've got a flag and some paraphernalia. Yeah. It's a big holiday, isn't it? Even on the West Coast. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, hell, yeah. We'll have some, some fireworks and some brew later on. Good, mate. Well, God bless The US of for all our American brothers listening. It's very kind of you, Rolo to be on the show, to be on the podcast. For guys that don't know who Rolo Tomasi is, perhaps you're more of a gamer than being online or reading theory. Roosh Tomasse is pinnacle, essential in what people call the manosphere. He has his online blog called the Rational Male. He's the author of two books Rational Male and Rational Male Preventative Medicine. You could say I'm talking about you in third person. This is funny. That's alright. It's like on Saturday Night Live or something, but people would refer to you as a red pill writer, yeah? I would say so, yes. So for guys who follow me, but they don't follow red pill stuff, red pill is just, taken from obviously the movie the matrix, red pill versus blue pill. It's an awakening, it's an awareness of truth, studying what people really do as opposed to what they say they do in terms of mating and dating. So this is why I love Roosh, because as a man after my own heart, he follows evolutionary biology, behaviourism, psychology, the underlying forces behind game and taking game to a much wider level, which is what we're going to talk about. You might, if you follow my stuff, you might have heard me talk about sexual economics, sexual marketplace, sexual market value. I've talked about this with Nick Krauser. I'm sure Roosh, you're aware of David Buss, The Evolution of Desire.

**Speaker 2:** Oh, yeah. I love it. I love the podcast. He's got a great podcast. Has he? Yes.

**Speaker 1:** I don't I don't don't follow him. I'd like to meet him. He's down in Texas, I think. Yes. Yeah. I'd love to meet him because when I saw him giving a talk, looked a bit square. He looked a bit professor like. Yeah. But if you read his stuff, it's shockingly sexual and truthful, you know?

**Speaker 2:** Another favorite of mine is Marty Hasselton. She's a Yeah. Professor out of UCLA.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Speaking the truth. I'll link these below. You've got Richard Dawkins, obviously, selfish gene. Mhmm. Matt Ridley. A lot of guys might have read sperm wars by Robin Baker, but that's why I wanted to talk to Roosh today. So cheers for coming on, man. Sure. Can you give a quick overview for the guys that don't follow the manosphere or rational male, who you are and what you do?

**Speaker 2:** Well, I have a behavioral psychology background mainly. And right around, gosh, I would say about year 2000. Yeah. I was in university and, I was just getting into male and female interchanges. I had also a specialization in personality studies as well. Yeah. And, but I was following behaviorism mostly. And it was just kind of shocking to me that we would have such a hard concrete science as behaviorism and not apply that to inner gender dynamics. So that's when I started getting into it. I started to just explore a little bit more. I started listening to Tom Likas a little bit, and I was you know, he has a rough delivery and he's a he's a pretty, you know, showy guy as far as a talk show was concerned. He had a terrestrial radio show back then, and started listening to his stuff. And then I started just sort of connecting the dots and seeing you know Yeah. Is this related? Is this behaviorism related to inner gender dynamics? Because a lot of what I studying at that time was I wanna say, operative conditioning. Yep. And I sort of made the connection between how women would operantly condition men to, you know, meet their own needs or to affect their own sex. You know, back then I didn't know what it was called, but to affect their own sexual strategies. Yeah. And I started connecting those dots and I thought it was really funny. I started bringing it up with colleagues and other students as well as my teachers at the time, and they were just adamantly against it. Know, it very much Yeah. Touchy feely stuff. And even the guys who were like the real hardcore, evolutionary psychologists were still, you know, really hesitant to make those connections and to really, you know, explore that. So that's what started me. And so I started getting into what would become the manosphere by getting on a I was on the well, still am a moderator for the So Suave Yeah. Forums. And I got into it with these guys and, you know, we sort of hash things out. It was a real debating forum for these ideas. And from those ideas, then I launched a blog back in 2011. And I've been writing really for, gosh, the last ten, twelve years. Yeah. But nothing formally until I started the Rational Mail. And once I started doing the blog, then I had people saying, you really need to put this into a book so that it's more accessible. It's one thing to have, you know, a blog and have people take you seriously because you have a blog, but it's another thing to have, you know, printed material in their hands, and know that, you know, the people who wouldn't take the internet seriously take a book seriously. So I pretty much just codified all that into one book. And, quite honestly, I thought that would be the only book I'd ever write. Yep. So, I tried to, you know, put as much material as I had had for, you know, at that time, probably about 10. And then I decided that, you know, I was coming up with some other ideas at the time. Was, you know, I just published. I was just learning how to do self publishing. Yep. And while I was doing that, of course, you know, I'm still blogging. I'm still kind of, you know, exploring ideas over and over again. And I came up with another series on the blog called Preventive Medicine. And that sort of morphed into the second book, because I always had the I always had people hit me up and say, Man, I wish I would have had this material when I was, you know, 20. You know, Where were you when I was 20 and and, you know, didn't know anything? Yeah. And so, I'm like, okay, well fine, I'm gonna write a book that's gonna address those things, and what you can expect from women throughout their various phases of maturity. And so, that's what I that was really the intent for preventive medicine. I will probably end up doing a third book later on. I haven't decided what exactly that's gonna end up being, but I've decided that, the rational male will end up being a series of books. And I'm just, you know, sort of see where it goes from there. I don't really have any concrete plans just yet. I mean, the the second book just came out in March. So I'm just gonna let that sit and, I still I mean, the first book still is selling crazy good right now, And it's really getting out there into, you know, the mainstream. So it's good to see that happen too. So but that's what I've been doing. That's, you know, most mostly about me.

**Speaker 1:** What surprises some men when they come across your stuff is that you're a married man despite Yeah. Having a you had your player years and you clearly understand these dynamics live. Was that when you were at uni? You Actually kind of born in the

**Speaker 2:** no. When I I mean just to give you a little bit of you can look this up on my blog, just to give you a little bit of personal history. I grew up in Los Angeles. I went to, you know, community colleges in Los Angeles. I didn't go to a university till I got to Nevada. But I during my formative years, guess, you know, from the time I was about 19 until I was about 24, 25, I played in various semi professional bands in Hollywood, in the Hollywood music scene at that time. Yeah. And we're talking about the late eighties into the early nineties. And, yeah, I had my I had my player times. Most of the times, I won't really even call it a playing because I was just doing what I felt was natural. You know? I knew I wanted to get laid. I certainly wasn't in the music business to get you know, to make money at it because nobody was making money. Yeah. It was it was there to be showy, and it was there to to, you know, hook up with chicks, that's all they did. Yeah. And so, if I have a game, it was really sort of a natural default. I had a talent. I had a look. And after a while, I figured out how to parlay that into, you know, getting laid semi regularly. Yeah. I've had I've had a few girlfriends at the time that were, you know, semi long term, but,

**Speaker 1:** but, yeah, I mean, I have my player years. And then, I got married when I was 28. So Well, this is this is great because it gives you a much broader view, you could say, than guys who are purely into it as pickup artist, guys, you know, just Yeah. Solely focused on just getting laid. Right. Well, it's it's much more of a I don't wanna say it's a science, but it's much more

**Speaker 2:** of schedule. There's much more of a I don't wanna say a scheme, but it's there's much more of a strategy to it now than there ever was, you know, when I was, you know, in my twenties. Yeah. So so, yeah, there's there's definitely a I mean, that was really kind of what got me into behavioral psychology in the first place, figuring out, you know, why why we do what we do. You know? The the irony for me coming across across your stuff and,

**Speaker 1:** David Bus or Robin Baker is that at university I studied biological sciences. I studied with Richard Dawkins as one of my tutors. I was a very introverted academic nerd. So at the time, I remember thinking, you know, what what use is this? It's very interesting theoretical genetics. When would this ever benefit me? Right. And then disregarding that, going into my much later player years, having my fun, and then coming full circle to realizing that my outer behavior and the outer behavior that I was seeing with girls that I was trying to pick up was exactly surprise surprise explained by the genetics that I had learned ten years before at university. And reading your blog was like, it is joining the dots. So you're taking very theoretical science and applying it to very practical pickup because I think as Krauser said, pickup and pickup artists are gathering all this data and they don't really know how to explain it. Mhmm. So you need a man with, feet in both camps. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I I also,

**Speaker 2:** I think that, you know, being able to apply I mean, was it, Nick was saying something about that, you know, game, you know, enthusiast, I guess, for lack of a better term. You know, people who are out there in the field have done more experimentation than anybody can do. Any, you know, scientists, you know, for lack of a better term again, can do in in a in a controlled experiment. So, when you're out there, you're actually performing experiments and seeing what works and seeing what doesn't. And, you know, then coming back with that and saying, here's what worked for me. See if this works for you. Yeah. I mean, that's really what the manosphere is. Manosphere is a collection of guys. It's it's guys getting together and saying, here's my experiences. Here's what I've seen will work, and here's how I got screwed, and here's how I got burned, and here's how I got, I was successful at it, and here's how, you know, maybe you can try it too. I mean, my experiences are gonna be way different than somebody in India's. You know? And I have I have people from, you know, South Africa hit me up. I have people from India hit me up, from all over the world, and we're sharing experiences. So it's really one big,

**Speaker 1:** large, you know, testing bed for everything. Because one of my my issues with the manosphere, in that I haven't gone deep into it is that if you, read this knowledge, and you have an overview, you have an understanding, but you don't take action or you don't have the opportunity to take action, I think it can very quickly descend into negativity or bitterness, anger. Certainly when I read the selfish gene as a geeky nerd, I was very, very depressed by it. You know what I Discovering this knowledge without being able to do anything about it is like a prison.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. Well, I you've already mentioned before. I have a a post, and actually it's in the first book, the bitter taste of the red pill. Yes. And what that was intended to address was that you're going to experience that. You're going to When you have that transition from going from an old way of thinking into a new way of thinking, when you become red pill aware, you really get into I mean, I have another post called, the five or six stages, really, of unplugging. And, you know, they go through, you know, anger, frustration Yeah. Disbelief, you know, things like that. Basically, they're the same five, steps that you go through when you're accepting death. And in a sense, part of you is dying because that blue pill idealism, that blue pill hope, those blue pill goals, those things that you've always been taught, you know, by Disney movies. Yep. You've all god. I just watched that that Pixar movie with, what was it? Inside Out. And there's it's it's depressing, and it's funny at the same time because I'm seeing things that I know through my own experience and through my own red pill lens. People are laughing and everything, but I'm looking at this movie going, oh my god, this is actually very depressing to me. Yep. If you're a red pill aware guy, and you're the only one in the audience that gets it, yeah, yeah, that can be a pretty lonely place. Yeah. That can be a pretty upsetting, frustrating place, because all of these things that you thought were so real and so concrete, and you thought that you were gonna be able to, you know, live happily ever after, you have to change that. You have to change your ideas about what it is that you want for yourself. And the good news, of course, is that, you know, in a red pill awareness, you can do that. You can reestablish hope for yourself, but you do it from a place of truth and a place from reality. I describe exactly that point as once you see the overview

**Speaker 1:** Mhmm. You are in what, Tyler used to call you in the secret society, in that you see the hacks, you see the loopholes. Right. Which I see as massively now, I see as massively useful and inspiring. And if you are a single guy, or even if you're married, you can use this knowledge to play Vegas at their own game, if you like. Right. So I think it can be liberating if would you agree that if you take this knowledge, but you apply it positively?

**Speaker 2:** Oh, yeah. Of course. And that's sort of the message in the second book as well. That's why I did that, is so that people, you know, men would have a better understanding of what to expect from the women that they are either, you know, out in the clubs gaming, or they are married to or they heck, even your, even your sister, even your mother. Yep. People you know, women that you work with at, you know, in in in your workplace. Things like that. You're you're better prepared for it and you know what you know what's coming next. So, you know, if if you know that your boss, your female boss, is on the rag this week, well, you can plan ahead for that, you know? Yep. And and you understand you have a better idea of what is going to come the week after that, because women are on a on a cycle. They're not just I mean, that's one of the biggest lies of the blue pill, is that everybody is everybody. Everybody is just even. We're all equal. The only thing that's different is the plumbing. That's bullshit. Yep. And the sooner you grasp that, the better off you will be that we are not all equal. We are not not all all exactly the same. Okay? Men and women are different. It's fundamentally different.

**Speaker 1:** I've obviously read both books, but I I have to say the second book I enjoyed more because, as you said, it's it's a book that I could hand to a guy as a practical manual and say, look, this is this is a woman's span. This is what's going to happen in different phases of her life and why without her often being aware of it. So you stress the kind of subconscious aspect of this, because I think a lot of guys get caught up in thinking that women are doing this on purpose as a kind of a, as you know, an evil plotted game. When as a biologist, I see that if I don't blame women as a pickup artist, if I just use this knowledge as, like I said, to improve my action taking, I think it's very easy to see this knowledge as women doing this on purpose. Do know what I mean? Right. Right. It seems manipulative.

**Speaker 2:** And I think that's one of the bigger disconnects that a lot of guys have, is they expect some personal responsibility from women, and you should. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just because you're built a certain way, or you're prone to certain things because you are a man, or because you're a woman, or just simply because you are who we are. But that's not excusing I mean, game at red pill knowledge is not excusing behavior. It's not a license to you know, commit crimes. It's not a license to, you know, to sin. It's not a license to to go out and do all that stuff. It's just simply knowledge. When when when you're talking about hypergammon, you know, you you have to understand that's how women are built. That is their sexual strategy. Yep. Men are different, know. We, you know, our impetus is unlimited sexuality with unlimited, you know, agency. You know, access, unlimited sexuality. You know, if we can get it, we'll get it. You know, we'll try to get Yes, That's a good time. If you could explain

**Speaker 1:** to guys that aren't aware necessarily of this double strategy that women are playing, because I'm sure you know men know instinctively their own strategy, which is this kind of polygamous fuck as many young hot girls as you can to spread your genes. Mhmm. But it might surprise guys who are new to all this knowledge. What are the two strategies that women are playing? Well, the euphemism, of course, is alpha fucks and beta bucks. Okay? When

**Speaker 2:** you are looking at women's sexual strategy, it comes down to what's called a dualistic strategy. And that means that they're looking for the best genetic deal that they can get, and the best provisioning, long term security deal that they can get. And I go into this in the second book as well, as I outline just the biological underpinnings of that. You have to understand that women's sexuality, women's fertility is cyclic. So, during parts of their menstrual cycle, they're more prone to the alpha fuck side of things when they are in an ovulatory, what's called an ovulatory shift is what it is, is their behaviors will prompt them to seek out the alpha, seek out the better looking guy, the guy with the more masculine qualities who are not necessarily the best long term choice for them. Yep. Then in their that's called the proliferative phase. The second phase after Manassas, and that ends up becoming the luteal phase. I go into that in the book as well. Yep. And so those are the two prompts. In that luteal phase, women are looking for comfort. They're looking for rapport. They're looking for the nice guy to comfort them. They're looking for security, looking for parental investment cues from a guy, more feminine, more comforting features as opposed to in the proliferative phase where they're looking for the hot alpha guy. And that's when you go see girls on their girls night out at the clubs, generally they're probably going to be in the proliferative phase. Yeah. Because they're working it out, maybe not consciously, but on a subconscious level. Trying to make it as convenient as possible for them to be in a position where they would find a guy like that. Yep. Or as opposed to in their luteal phase, they're looking for a guy who is, you know, like I said, more comforting, more husband material, I guess.

**Speaker 1:** I love how people claim that women are a mystery, know, this eternal mystery. I think even Professor Stephen Hawkins said he understands black holes but he doesn't understand women. Exactly. To an evolutionary biologist, it's very simple. Mhmm. And your scheme in the second book, I mean, it lays it out there. It's not that complicated, is it? No. No. No.

**Speaker 2:** What I was gonna say though is that that biological underpinning then extrapolates into an overall strategy. Okay? Mhmm. So we're looking for the guy a lot of people wanna say that ideally, if a woman could find One guy. A hot guy with the, you know, provisioning aspects and was the ideal of those two. Mhmm. You would you would like to say, okay, that's the guy that she's gonna sell for. You know, he is alpha flux and beta bugs. The problem that you're running into right now is that that's not necessarily true. Particularly now with women being able to have more freedom in the sexual marketplace and their ability to optimize hyperband, they're not looking for AlphaFlex and Betabucks in the same guy now. They're looking for them in separate guys. To guys that don't know what hypergamy is, can you just summarize that to them? Hypergamy is, like I said, just what I was just talking about just now, is really a dualistic nature of women. The dualistic nature of women is that they're they they want the alpha bucks and the beta bucks. The hypergamy, would you say, is like the upgrade when you when you constantly got the eye on the next iPhone? Right. The best the best that they can do is not enough. The better is what they need. They need better than their sexual market value. That's what hypergammy is. It's women's constant look for a better sexual market value than they themselves can actually merit. So when we're talking about the hot guy and she's in a proliferative phase, that guy, if he's two steps above her in the sexual marketplace, that's what she's looking for. That's optimizing hypogamy. It's a better than level deal. Also, when it comes to provisioning, if she can find a guy who is, you know, a millionaire is going to be a provider than somebody who's, you know, a sandwich artist at Subway. Yep. So But once again, it's strategy. It's often subconscious.

**Speaker 1:** Is where guys misunderstand it as her plotting this, you know, late at night. I think there are women, there are bitchy women, just like there are dick men. But just like we do subconscious things like looking at boobs, looking at asses, thinking about cheating on our girlfriends. Right. Subconsciously

**Speaker 2:** looking for, you know, the backflip in the cup. It's like I said, it's it's you know, shit testing ends up being really a fitness test for that particular, you know, whatever that aspect of hyperactivity that that woman is looking at at that point. Precisely. Yeah. So so for them to shit test you is as subconscious to them as you staring at a girl's boobs. Yep. It's a strategy. That's what you're looking for. You're looking for sexual strategy optimization.

**Speaker 1:** Yep. This is this is a point that I really wanted to talk about with you. In seeing game as much wider than what the pickup community or people who, who are fascinated by pickup artists. Game because people will say things like, well, I'm married, so I'm not in the game. I'm out of the game. I don't like playing games. Pickup is manipulative because it plays games. And that's just a complete misunderstanding of life on earth and survival and replication being the ultimate game or business being a game or marketing being a game. Can you explain why game is not just pickup?

**Speaker 2:** Well, I would say that game has a lot more applications. The way I define game is well, I separate it from red pill awareness is that red pill is really, I want to say theory, pill is sort of awakening yourself to the truth of what's going on with you and women and the sexual marketplace. And that's not, you know, not necessarily just the sexual marketplace because like I said it can be you working with a female boss. You're never gonna fuck a female boss, but you can still have a better work life because you know game, because you know red pill, you know, you're red pill aware. Same thing applies for a married man. You know, Apple Kay has his married man sex life blog, which I think has really kinda gone a little bit purple pill in the last, you know, few years. But, you know, originally, the intent was to apply red pill awareness to marriage, you know, married men. Yep. And how they can get along better, or how they can have a better, you know, sexual relationship with their wives. Mhmm. These are guys who are already locked into, you know, a long term commitment. So they're going to want to be able to use this knowledge and use these techniques to, I won't say game their wives, but to certainly have a better idea of

**Speaker 1:** what they can expect from their wives. That's why I I just find it so odd when people deny a game. And because if you're if you're if you're running a business, you know, free market capitalism, or you're playing chess, or you're you're doing anything with strategy, which is what survival and replication is. Right. You're in the game whether you like it or not. And I I find it fascinating that there's almost this recent kind of nostalgia sentimentalism, you know, I've read on the manuscript where guys are saying, women were so wonderful before all this, all these recent sociological changes, when there's always been alpha males and beta males. There's always been upgrading. There's always been these sexual behavioral

**Speaker 2:** traits. Do you know what I mean? These are millions of years old. I have a, I've got a post, I think it was about two posts back, but it was actually from an older post where I was sort of exploring the idea that we're in some era of, you know, this total degeneracy. That, you know, that it's it's such a shame that women are like this now. Well, you know what? If you go back and you look at the records for illegitimate births during World War two, and you look at how women, you know, would cozy up with, you know, German soldiers during the war. You look at the people, you know, look at the I have the stats on that post, but it's illegitimacy or birth illegitimacy, as well as abortion during that time. It's really shocking because we look at that generation as being very romanticized. We look at the World War II generation as the greatest And generation, they were just as susceptible to hypergamy and to sexual marketplace strategies as anybody else was. It's just that the time was different and the conditions were different. We didn't have as widespread birth control. They may have rubbers and stuff like that, but they did not have hormonal birth control back then. Precisely. I love the phrase,

**Speaker 1:** a beautiful phrase, genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. Right. But the genetics of what makes pussies tingle has existed for millions of years. Yes. So I'm not particularly worried when guys send me emails like, oh no, man. Tinder's ruining daygame. Yeah. As I say, man, an alpha male is an alpha male. I mean, don't you worry about Tinder. But I agree. Environment has shifted. There'll be some there'll be something else that that replaces Tinder at some point. Of course. The the fundamentals, know, the the the nuts and bolts of it are still the same. And the game moves are still the same. The chess moves are still the same of preselection and jealousy. And you know what I mean? It's right. There's nothing new under the sun. Nothing new under the sun. You mentioned the word purple pill, which which I've scribbled down as well. So guys, from the matrix will know the red pill, manosphere, red pill awareness and the blue pill kind of beta stuff, but there's this recent trend certainly I've spotted even in the pickup community for purple pill blogging, purple pill vlogging. Can you explain what purple pill is?

**Speaker 2:** I see purple pill as sort of a watering down of the red pill. Yep. And what I see that is, and most of this comes from the life coaches sector, if you want to call it the I don't even really, wouldn't even call it the manosphere, because most of that is just simple, formulaic, advice. Some of it has a little bit of red pill truths to it, but it's sort of a marching back of the red pill in order to make it a little more palatable to guys who are still hung up on blue pill idealism. They want to still like I said, when you get to a point of red pill awareness, it can be very depressing. Well, I think that there's a want to march it back a little bit. There's a want to say, well, it's really not as bad as all that. It's not as bad, it's just that they don't realize that they can create hope in another set of circumstances. And I see that that's what's coming up with a lot of life coach bloggers. And they generally are selling something and not to hold that against anybody, but if you look at the stats for most of these guys, they have a very high, a very high, I wanna say, instance of having, you know, women participate on their blogs and their forums and things It's like

**Speaker 1:** when you see pickup guys asking girls on the street for dating advice, that kind of thing. Mhmm. I see it as a marketing move because I really think I know a lot of these, dating coaches, life coaches, and they are teaching what's always been taught. You know, it's still a pickup boot camp, but it's it makes it, as you said, more digestible. Then you get more clicks if you say that it's about, Tony Robbins esque things. You know what I mean? It becomes more female friendly. More female friendly. And interestingly, after that, Julian Blanc RSD, storm, many guys, I think, just became fearful of what they were doing and saying. It's like when Darwin said God is dead, you know, and there was obviously that backlash. So guys, a lot of pickup companies overnight switched to saying, oh, we're not teaching pickup. We're teaching self development.

**Speaker 2:** Right. Right. Self improvement. When and that's the note. I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But the problem that I have is that they're not embracing, you know, red pill truths in their totality. Yep. They're it's it like I said, it's a marching back. It's it's making the blue pill more palatable because they want, you know, they want a broader readership of course, but they want it to seem a little more optimistic, a little and more and there's nothing wrong with being optimistic about things, like I said, but it's just that when you go and you water things down and you sort of push people back towards that blue pill idealism,

**Speaker 1:** that's when you start running into real problems. Exactly. It's when it becomes the creationism thing of education in schools. When I only I'm only bothered by it when a coach is teaching students. Mhmm. Let's say about natural game with with elements that are quite clearly wrong in terms of how men and women interact. Mhmm. Then that's the equivalent of creationism teaching, isn't it? I mean, that's

**Speaker 2:** Well, it's like it's like when I was in the beginning of the interview here, was letting you know about, you know, my experience with with behaviorism. I was talking to, you know, professors who were, you know, very academic, you know, guys who were very nuts and bolts about that. I mean, that's one the reasons that behaviorism appealed to me because it was nuts and bolts. It wasn't this, you know, new age touchy feely humanistic type stuff. It was like, here is how it works. You know, the only the only proof of motivation for a behavior is behavior. Precisely. It's what it is. But yet, here I am still telling these guys, hey, look, women are doing this behavior, or they're evoking, or they're doing behavior modification with men. And they're like, oh, no. No. That can't be. You know, are above that. We we know better and and therefore, we can control that. And and that just blew me away. I I was like, how can you guys be so nuts and bolts and still be touchy feeling when it comes to stuff like this? I think because you've got that layer that it's such a dangerous hush-hush

**Speaker 1:** topic in terms of being politically correct. That's why even I mean, I remember when Sperm Wars came out and that was a very controversial book, Selfish Gene still is. And God knows how much hate mail David Buss gets. But, I admire him for just, as you said, he said this is not how we say we behave, this is what we actually do. Yeah. And people find that very alarming, men and women. Mhmm. Because it hits a raw nerve, you know? This is how women are behaving. This is what men really want. Right. And I think that

**Speaker 2:** I mean, just to move things along here, I think that men are becoming more and more aware of that. And if they're not becoming accepting of it, they're becoming more aware of it. I go into the book in the in the second book about open hypergamy and how it's being, you know, proudly being flaunted to men right now in commercials in, like, the movies I was just saying. Yep. Open openly. You go you watch the the commercials at the Super Bowl, and you will see at least six commercials that play on open hyper game. Yes. And at some point, even the most blue pill guys is gonna go, you know what? This is a raw deal.

**Speaker 1:** Yep.

**Speaker 2:** This isn't working out for guys, you know? Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Oh, yeah. I meet men or I get emails daily where just the light switch has gone on, you know? But

**Speaker 2:** that's good as long as it leads to positive action and them getting a better outcome. Fantastic. Exactly. Again, that's half the reason I wrote preventative medicine. Yeah. To sort of, you know, push that along and say, hey, look, here's what's going on. And the next time you see this, you'll see it. I was about to say, yeah, that's the book I'd give people.

**Speaker 1:** It's like a hands on manual. Because it goes hand in hand with what I'm teaching. I what have I scribbled down here? Yes. Another controversial topic or something misunderstood because when pickup guys think of a relationship or they think of marriage, they're painted as very binary things, know, like pickup artist alpha marriage, lose a beta. And now people are almost shamed in having relationships and being married. Can you talk about obviously marriage from a place of strength versus a kind of desperation marriage?

**Speaker 2:** Well, I learned a long time ago that if I didn't man up, I was gonna end up being divorced. Man up is such an over abused term right now, but what I mean is, by that, is if I didn't accept the red pill, if I didn't accept things the way they are, just for the sake of not only just my marriage and my relationship with my wife, but also for my family. Also for my daughter. Also for my living arrangements. I mean you think about the things that are contingent on being married and having a good, you know, if that's the direction you wanna go, if that's the lifestyle you choose. Because I look at marriage as a lifestyle choice. Yep. Okay? If you want to be single, you know, into your eighties, fine. Go, you know, go at it. I've I've said this before, as if I were to find myself single tomorrow, I would never get married in this state right now. Yep. Because I know I know I know too much. Yes. So, I have a very good marriage. I've been married, well I have been for nineteen years on the twentieth of this month. Congratulations. Thanks. And I don't necessarily see being a married man as being a bad thing, or being you're automatically a pussy if you get married. Yeah. I understand the dangers. I understand that tomorrow everything could change. I understand that the risks that are inherent to a guy when you are a married guy. You take on a lot of that and you need to understand that. In fact, if there's any reason for preventive medicine, it's so that you know what you're getting into. I'm not against marriage, I'm against I didn't see it come in marriage. I'm not against, you know, having kids. I'm not against being a father. I mean, it's I have a different experience than a lot of guys do. I have a kid. I have a 17 year old daughter. I have been married for nineteen years. I've also been a player in the, Hollywood music scene back in the days. Yep. I've had a lot of life experience. Forgive me for seeming for glossing myself or anything, but it's like I have a broad experience that I think most guys don't have. Oh, this is good. That's the position that I write from. So if I were to be just a player until I was 60 or something like that, that's gonna be a different experience. And God bless the guys who do that. Yep. But their experience is gonna be different than my experience, and I think that you can apply red pill truths to marriage. I've done so. And I would credit my wife with actually expecting those things from me, expecting that kind of,

**Speaker 1:** you know, that sort of positive masculinity that Yeah. I've I've come into, and I've come into in a state of marriage. No. I love it. I I I think of even the, you know, the Chris Rocks or the Patrice O'Neills. Right. And these guys aren't bachelors or these guys are not single guys. These guys are coming into relationships just being men. Right. And, as you said, loving the fact that if you if you date or marry a a feminine woman, she is bringing out the man. She wants the man. I only preach against marriage if it's a the guy saying he wants to escape from the sexual marketplace or b he says I want to find you know there's the one. There's the one in the universe. Right. And I met her when I was 17 at school. Right. So that's that's a misunderstanding.

**Speaker 2:** Well, I I approach marriage from a completely different perspective now than I would have when I was, you know, in my twenties. I kept saying to my, I had just gotten out of a very, very bad relationship before I met my wife. I was with a borderline personality disorder woman for And a it was a very psychologically abusing relationship. Abusive relationship. So that's another aspect of, you know, intergender relationships that I can address because I had that experience. Was horrible. I would advise any guy in that situation just to simply get out. Don't try to make it better. Get out and go. Makes sense. So I can address those things. And I think that having a woman that expects that positive masculinity is certainly another part of that experience. Yep. There's not you know, I didn't marry a unicorn. There are, you know, people who say, well, you know, you just got lucky, or you just got a great, you know, you just got into something that you didn't know what you were getting into. And I sure as hell didn't know what I was getting into. But I want guys to understand that, like, I think that most guys who get into a marriage go in with a weak frame, that's the frame they keep throughout that marriage. And then because they're approaching it from a blue pill perspective, and they don't realize that right about the time that they're gonna get married is right about the time that a woman needs to get married, or she needs her sexual market value has declined in such a state that she needs to get that. She needs to have a plan b guy. And those guys end up being the guys who get fucked really bad in divorces later on. So, you know, I think that if marriage is a choice that you want to make, that's okay. But I think that you need to go in with your eyes wide open and understand that she needs you more than you need her at that particular point in her life. Let's finish on a topic which I think is one of your favorites. It's certainly my favorite and it's misunderstood and it links to exactly what you just said.

**Speaker 1:** That's frame control. Yep? Yes. When I teach frame control, I usually get gasps from people in the audience. So I remember one guy came up to me after seminar and said, you know, how does he strategize it? How is it how can he make it secret? And, it was as if he was going into a war, you know, as if it was confrontational. And it's very easy to see frame control like that because you think when guys think of frame controls, they think of bitchy shit tests in a nightclub. But when you're talking about frame control and we're looking at it from a biological or a strategic point of view, frame control is everything, isn't it? It's it's exactly what you just said about roles in a marriage, going in with your eyes wide open, knowing who's holding the ball.

**Speaker 2:** Well, I was telling in the last interview with Christian McQueen, I was telling him, you know, a lot of people say, well, you you just have to get game your wife all the time, and that's so much effort, and that's so much you know, who who has the time for that? Like, how exhausting would that be? And, like, I don't game my wife. It's just who I am. It's just how I go about living my life and and interacting with her. So because the frame is there. She expects me to be a positively masculine decision maker for our family before, you know, as a husband, as a father, and as a man. Yep. You know, that's what she expects from me. Yep. And she doesn't want to be in control of the frame. Yep. There's a lot of people think, oh, well, she's they have wives that are like very overbearing, they're you know, they've allowed them to get into that situation because they're women feel if they feel insecure about a guy, or if they feel like he's not gonna to step up to the plate, she's gonna go and do it herself, because she needs to. She's forced into a situation where Don't enjoy it.

**Speaker 1:** Don't enjoy As Patrice O'Neil says, they they don't wanna win. They wanna win. Yes. And they'll resent you. It's a test. If they're if they're taking the ball, they're waiting for you to take it back. I always think it's like a good teacher or a good parent, and you obviously know more about parenting than me. But from my teaching point of view, children push against your boundaries because they want you to lay down the boundary, and they love it. Right. So rather than seeing frame control as this horrible, gamey, manipulative thing, I I I celebrate it. As you said, the woman is giving you a chance

**Speaker 2:** or is hoping that you will take back the frame. And and that goes against a lot of what we're taught in a blue pill context. Of course. We're we're all equals. We're all you need to you need to support her. We need to be all on the same team, and we all need to Yep. You know, express ourselves equally, and we all need to have a and it's bullshit. Yeah. Because we are different. And once you start taking over that frame and once you start taking control of that, you'll see how quickly that she you know, she will either completely chomp the bit because she doesn't believe you or she will acquiesce. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Nice. So not getting bitter, but getting real. And preventative medicine for those listening, that's super clear on everything that me and Roosh have just discussed. Where can men find this fine book, mister Tomasu?

**Speaker 2:** It's on Amazon. You can also come to my website, is the or my blog, which is therationalmail.com. Yep. And a lot of my stuff I keep my books very affordable. The first book was only $9.99 and I make a good living doing what I do for a living. I'm sure I make money off of it, but I only price my stuff you know, to make them affordable and make it accessible because I'm more interested in people getting their hands on this. And I'm actually more interested in guys getting the actual physical copies of the books Yeah. Because it's it's good for them to have that. Yep. And if you're listening to this podcast on YouTube,

**Speaker 1:** then the links for everything we've talked about are below. If you're listening on iTunes, then just head over to my YouTube channel to find all these physical links to the authors and the scientists and the topics that we have talked about. Wow. That was a lot of stuff, mister Tomasse. Yeah. Crammed it into an hour. Crammed it in under an hour on the July 4. Nice. Raising a glass to The USA and to everything you preach, teach, and write about. Thank you very much for coming on, man. Good. Thank you. Thanks for having