---
title: Episode 28 Interview With John Bodi
episode_number: 28
era: early
source_file: Episode 28 Interview With John Bodi.mp3
audio_size_mb: 77.2
duration_sec: 2530.1
duration_min: 42.2
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.995
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T17:14:23Z---

# Episode 28 Interview With John Bodi

**Speaker 0:** Tom Torero podcast 28. A surprise bonus podcast in the podcast previously, podcast 27. Said, I'm having a break from podcast because of my world tour shenanigans, but here I am sitting on a hotel floor drinking a pint of beer with a guest who shall be revealed in, where are we, Baker Street. Still in London. So this is the Sunday night before the Monday when I head off. I said to myself today, I'm gonna have a nice chilled evening, have an early night, get into bed, be all good. And then the guest who's on this podcast said, let's just we'll go out. So we went out for some foods, a natter, and then we thought, fuck it. Let's do a podcast. Let's have a beer. So the start of the world tour is here in London, which I suppose is true because yesterday yesterday being the eleventh, I think it was, I did my first below the belt talk. Cheers to all the guys that came to that. There was a packed room. It was beautiful. And it was the first time I'd given that talk. So I was happy. I was happy with how it went and the feedback was really nice. So thank you if you came, thank you if you email me and I'll be giving that talk like I said in New York, Los Angeles, Sydney, Auckland, Cape Town, and then a bit like Philius Fogg. In thirty days time, I think, I'll be back in London. And it's not gonna be around the world in eighty days. I wish it was in thirty days, but that's very, very unlikely. Phyllis Fogg being fictional as well, wasn't it? Phyllis Fogg. That's fictional, of course. But Michael Palin's around the world in eighty days. That was true. I'm not starting it at the reform club. I guess I'll finish it here. John, that's his getting his name. He's nodding at me. We'll meet back here in thirty days. Yeah. We shall. Probably not in a hotel room because it's a bit dodgy, but we'll have a beer in thirty days time. And anyway, I've let it slip. The guest's name is John. Alright, John? Hello. I'm gonna talk about you as if you're not here, John, to introduce you like Parkinson. Yeah? John. John is the guest today. Let's talk about John. John has been my wing. John has been Krauser's wing. John has traveled with me. We've spent many a fine hour daygaming in foreign cities, living in Airbnb apartments. John has quit his job to work on his online business and his daygame stuff. John, I think you've been in it since 2010 or 2009 pretty much. Yeah?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. It started all for me. I read, guess what book, the game in about December 2009. And it really started on, I think, the 03/03/2010 when I went on a boot camp Yeah. With a pickup company that used to be called Rock Solid Game. So that was when it all kicked off. 2010.

**Speaker 0:** Old school, mate. You are basically old and old school. How old are you? Can we say that?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Don't pass it on to any of my leads or my dates, but I am 40. Yes. I in day game terms, that's 35.

**Speaker 0:** It's very flexible age. Didn't what did one girl say recently? You were 25.

**Speaker 1:** I I I talked to a charming 18 year old South South London black girl today. And I like your demographic. She said she said, oh, no. I can't I can't I couldn't give you my number. I'm afraid it was not appropriate. You're a little too old for me. I said, how old are you? And she said, oh, I'm 18. I said, how old do you think I am? And she said, oh, mid twenties.

**Speaker 0:** Bless the naivety. If only she knew. Did you chuckle inside with a sinister kind of cackle? Yeah. I just thought, oh, Jesus, you know,

**Speaker 1:** you need to learn to read guys ages.

**Speaker 0:** The naivety of an 18 year old. Anyway, John is on this podcast because I realized you haven't been on any podcast so far, have you, or any of my videos? Have you appeared in any form? No. No. But today, we were chatting about what we could talk about, and John kept bringing up inner game. And every time John said inner game to me, I looked at him and shuddered and scowled. And then I posed the question to John, in the game, is it worth it? Because as we'll talk about in a minute, John's journey has involved in the game work and pain and struggle like all daygame journeys. But when I talk to John or other daygamers like Rami about stuff they've gone through, it's different kinds of pain, it's different kinds of struggles. And you think that what you're going through is universal to everybody, but then you talk to John and John's got some amazing stories that we're gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about this sometimes woolly concept of in a game. What actually is it? The struggle, how you can get through it, the ups and the downs. There's a lot to talk about. If it goes over half an hour, fuck it. I mean, because this is a bloody good topic, and I haven't talked about this. Because when you think of Tom Torero podcast, you probably think that I hate in a game, because I'm always talking about taking action. So first of all, John, in a game, I'm looking at you just shaking my head. What is this fucking woolly self development thing? What is it not?

**Speaker 1:** In a game, is is it woolly? Is it self development? Is it I I see in a game as sorting out the issues that hold guys back from their relationships with women. Whatever mental problems, hurdles, neuroses, fears, anxieties they have that are stopping them approaching and meeting the girls they like, stopping them from having, you might wanna say, effective dates, even dating the girls they like, that's in a game. And sorting that out can radically improve your outer game, your your success.

**Speaker 0:** I don't deny this inner game. What I've what I've struggled with in the past, because often on forums or in books, have a divide, you know, like tabs or chapters. And one of them is called Outer Game, which is all the stuff I took about, like the hustle, practical things to do, taking action. And I've said many times, you know, the way I, my inner game stuff changed like the depression anxiety stress weird limiting beliefs and doubts is through my action. Whereas some guys that come to me or I've spoken to say well I'm not really doing the daygame yet because first, I wanna get the inner game sorted. Alright? I wanna get my fashion sorted. Wanna make some money. I wanna feel masculine. And then, apparently, the day game cold approaching is gonna be easy. Do you know what I mean? That's when I say, this sounds fucking you've got a word for

**Speaker 1:** excuses. Yeah? You came up with this word. Yeah. I if I'm ever gonna be known for anything in game, it's coming up with the term avoidance weasel, which developed in 2010 very rapidly after the March 3 when I I realized I was horribly avoidant in approaching girls. And I I felt I felt weasley when I was doing it. So I I don't know the animal term for anthropomorphized, but it just I just started saying I'm weaseling. I'm avoidant. I'm and I wrote a blog post and said, I've met avoidance weasel, and it it caught on. And, you know, Nick uses the term. The RSG guys use the term. So avoidance weasel is is different to in a game. Avoidance weasel is the voice in your head that says, oh, oh, no. She's too hot for you. She's walking too quickly. She's not your type. She looks snooty. Mhmm. She looks like she's rushing for work. Yep. She looks Finnish, and you had a bad experience with Finnish girls. Mhmm. Avoidance Weasel's the voice which says, oh oh, mate, you don't need to do daygame today. Look at the state of your apartment. Yep. It's a mess. But what are those bigger ones you talk about? Because this is where it crosses into like fake

**Speaker 0:** in a game work.

**Speaker 1:** I think you mean meta weasels. Meta weasels are see, avoidance weasels is cunning, is immeasurable, and he has many strategies and backdoors to try and stop you doing game. Yeah. Because at some point, doing things you're not comfortable with is unpleasant, and your brain just doesn't want you to do unpleasant things. It wants you to stay in the same rut. Yep. So metaweasles are are very cunning because they come across as they sound like they're positives. Yeah. So an avoidance weasel would be something simple like don't go out and do game today. A metaweasle would be you ought to get your inner game sorted before you do game. And a classic one I had earlier on, right at the start of daygame was I thought, right. First off, this daygame thing, it's all about interaction with people. Yep. I really can't afford to not be taking acting classes. So I signed up for acting classes Yeah. And stand up comedy classes. And they were on a Saturday afternoon, the busiest time of the week, especially for daygame. And I felt great about this Yep. Because I was I was working on this thing. And if I could get really good at acting and comedy, then, you know, this is gonna help my game immeasurably.

**Speaker 0:** What's the field of dreams analogy? I love that one because I've heard this a lot with life coaches, you know, talking about fitness, health, apartment, fashion, car.

**Speaker 1:** This is from the movie.

**Speaker 0:** Think Kevin it was Costner? Kevin? Kevin Costner?

**Speaker 1:** Love him. And in the movie, the tagline was, if you build it, they will come. So he he's a crazy man, and he builds a baseball field in his pitch and his cornfield, and then these weird ghosts of baseball people turn up. Mhmm. But what you're talking about is when people say, right. Game, daygamer approaching girls is low value behavior. Running, I'm a I'm a powerful man. Running up to girls in the street like a blue ass fly and telling them that they look they look nice is low value behavior. What I really need to do is I need to sort my shit out first. I need to, a, focus on my health and fitness. I need to focus on my fashion. I need to to hang around with positive, like minded men. I need to get my business down. I'm gonna quit my job and make a a passive income, and I'm gonna be on 3 figures a year. I'm gonna take up snowboarding and adventure sports. I'm gonna I'm gonna travel the world four times a year and hang out with her. It's a bit like, what do they call them? Big baller game? High baller game? Oh, it's money game. So the ultimate strategy is if you get all this stuff sorted, you won't need to do any game because you'll be so positive and be living your right life so right that, well, you'll just manifest manifest girls. And I I think it's it's just a crock of shit. Yeah. It's avoidance. It's avoidance. It's matter avoidance. Because avoidance weasel is very clever, so it sounds like a very positive thing.

**Speaker 0:** It is positive to sort all of this out. That's amazing. I don't ever say to guys don't sort your health out, don't sort your fashion out and don't sort your money out. But I'm pleased of a con I've called this my version of this concept the Trojan horse when if you do the painful journey, which you are about to elaborate on, John. I don't mean the journey itself, but you're gonna tell us some bottom world stories. Bottom world. We'll talk about bottom world. You shot out then. As I'm necking all your terms, that's another John term. Okay. Let's talk about sordid sad tales for now. When you go through these things and you get good with girls and you get the dating aspect sorted, what do you know? Without you wanting to, you sort out your fashion and your health and money often comes along with it. So I'm not saying those things aren't important, but like I've said in my recent alpha video, some guys that are really fucking good with girls are living in basements, unemployed. You know what mean? Those kind of guys, they can be very, good with women. So field of dreams, what a load of shite. The movie as well is pretty shite, by the way. Build it and they will come sounds like a slogan for a gay club. But yeah. Go on. You gotta explain Bottom World. I've said it I've said this term enough now.

**Speaker 1:** Bottom World. Google it. No. Sorry. YouTube it. It was a it was a TV series. BBC? BBC, was it? In the late eighties? Yeah. Now, Rick Mail and Adrian Edmondson Hammersmith. They lived in Hammersmith in an apartment, and it was squalid, desperate, dire, dirty stories, and they were just bleak, creepy, weird people. Yeah. And it was delicious viewing. It was hilarious and ghoulish and interesting. What is it? When you get into game and meet, you just magically start stumbling upon these weird, creepy situations and unusual people, and it just seems bottom world. Yeah. Well,

**Speaker 0:** enough ramblings before you telling a story. Guys are going, tell the fucking stories. What is this pain? Because I think when we were talking about the cars and the money and the fashion, that's a way round of guys saying, don't wanna suffer the pain. And many pickup guys have talked about this, but not in as much graphic detail as you've told me stories, John, about early pain. So there's the pain of rejection. There's the pain of, you know, flakes, and then the pain of girls going on dates and the escalation or rather us not escalating and then it all going fucking wrong. The pain of walking around. I'm just I'm talking about the pains in my book. So the daygame journey is painful, like any practical skill set. Like in the gym, it would be muscular pain, but in daygame, it's it's mental torture, and there is a bit of physical pain, especially if girls beat you with your own belt, like I talked about yesterday. But the stories you've told me have been like roller coaster stories because, obviously, there's heights. Otherwise, you wouldn't have kept going. So are you willing to tell some bottom world rollercoaster stories?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. There's been so many of them. Game Five years. Is it five years? At the start, I hated daygame. I absolutely hated it. And the reason I did it was because I literally thought I had no other choice. I used to go out and walk around, often walk around Covent Garden for four hours and I couldn't do one set. And all of this time, this four hours, I would just be doing the wrong thing, is just beating myself up mentally. Why aren't you doing it? You're a coward. You're shit. It's your only option in life. You're pathetic. You're too old. You're too fat. I mean, god, I'm just sick of my hearing that. And then I'd often not be able to even do one set, so I'd just have a little breakdown and go home and just feel terrible. And then to try and preempt that, all the next week, I would, at work, pressure cooker my own brain by saying, right. Next weekend, it's gonna be different. You're gonna you're gonna do a set. You know, you're gonna man up. You're gonna do the right thing. You know it's the right thing. It makes sense. You have no other options. So the next weekend, the pressure was even worse. Often, I'd I'd get off the train, I'd walk up and be you know, before I'd even reached Covent Garden, I'd just go home. I'd sit in doorways just all like, listening to music and just my face twisted and raging and ranting. And sometimes I got so neurotic from it. I'd I'd sort of run down alleys and just sit and have these long, audible, out loud conversations with myself for hours and hours, trying to tell myself that I should do this. Self talk. Self talk. And it's all about cognitive dissonance because because my hindbrain, the engine of habit, my habit reptilian brain didn't wanna do it because it was horrible and weird and unpleasant. And my forebrain, a little weak part, thought it was logically made sense to do it. So that cognitive dissonance, I I would just be shut down. My legs would be tired. There would be, like, lead. I'd be shaking. I'd feel weak. I remember it got so bad that my goal was to do one set. I'd go out and walk around for four hours in misery. And then finally, just so that I could go home, I'd run up to a girl and do one set and then go home thinking, thank god that living nightmare is over. Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** Comfort eating, I experienced to some degree, either when I was happy momentarily or down momentarily. You've got some shocking stories of comfort roller coaster food roller coasters.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. I've got a problem with food. I'm an emotional eater. One particular Saturday, I I walked around for three or four or five hours and and then had a breakdown and started crying in an alley, I think, in Covent Garden. I ran down an alley and just started weeping in this doorway that I just couldn't cope. And I jumped up. I ran to Marks and Spencer's, and I really felt like, oh, there's not much time. Oh, my god. Are they closed? I have to. And I tore in. I ran, and I just thought, cakes, sweets. I need them. And it was like it was like a drug, and I saw this massive tray of cream cakes for a party, for children's party or something. I grabbed this, paid for it, and then I ran down through Covent Garden, past I think I was crying, grown man. I was very fat at that point. I was crying, holding these cream cakes, running like Billy Bunter. I ran past Charing Cross Station and down the embankment and through these little side streets, and I found an alley. And I threw myself in this little alley and tore open and just started stuffing these cakes into my mouth. And I was crying because it was just I just tried to break down. And I'm stuffing and stuffing these kegs, and they were smeared on my face, and the jam was oozing down my top. And I was stuffing them in. I'm not kidding. In an alley, I look up, and the hottest girl I've seen all day is walking past with her designer clothes bags. And she just turns and just looks at me as if I'm dog shit. Yeah. And then it doesn't end there. Oh, no. The next week I think the next week, I'm out in Covent Garden, and I run into Nick, Nick Krauser. Yeah. And we didn't know each other that well at this point. But he said, oh, how are you doing? Oh, oh, oh, let me tell you. And, you know, he grabbed his phone and said, look. Look at this hot girl. Look at this one. Look at this lead. Look at these messages. Oh, oh, look. I had this date with this this black girl last week. She has massive tits. Blah blah blah blah blah blah. So I'm listening to all this. And he said, alright. How's it going for you? And I said, oh, yeah. Last weekend, not really that good. Last weekend, I had a mental breakdown and just got a box of cream cakes and sat in the doorway crying and eating them. And then there was just a long uncomfortable

**Speaker 0:** silence. Yeah. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Those were the low points.

**Speaker 0:** I I'm I'm sitting there, like, laughing, trying to not laugh on Mike because it is funny on one level. And you've written some of these stories down, and I and I've read some more shocking ones or heard you retell the shocking ones. But there are gonna be guys listening to this going, oh my god. I do the same thing. I'm not alone. This is this is the roller coaster, man. You know? There's the physical ups and downs, the blood sugar ups and downs, the mental ups and downs. And for someone who suffers from depressive tendencies or stress tendencies or they're an anxious person like both you and me. I don't think people realize because self development coaches go, oh, it's such a beautiful thing, man. It just it's like brings the flower out of you. It's just such a life affirming thing. Fuck off. Like, they've not watched bottom. Can you talk about how for some of the daygame journey early on certainly or actually never goes away, you can experience higher highs and lower lows and Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** I think the thing with game is that guys aren't wired to have all of these ups and downs. The average guy guys are beater. Nearly every guy on the face of the planet's a beater. You know? Stop and think what the what the life of an average guy is like once he's over 25 and he's not doesn't work in media or design or something cool. You know, he goes out with his mates to the pub. If he works in London, he probably doesn't have many mates. He's maybe getting maybe he joins salsa. He's maybe getting one or two leads a year. And when you when you're doing game, you're you're you're often getting, like, five a week. And those little cycles of ups and downs, they they hope that you fantasize about it. Oh, god. You know? You're just getting so many more of them so quickly that it it actually starts to oscillate your mood. Mhmm. And you'll start to find that, as I did, that when you do game, you become don't wanna say mentally unstable. Just be you suffer emotional oscillation, and you'll probably find that you get greater mood swings doing game than you ever had as a as a lonely blue pill toad before game. It's like being in high level sports or anything high level competitiveness

**Speaker 0:** or anything extreme where you do get highs, and we'll talk about the highs because this is making it sound like 100% bottom world for John. But then you do get the lows, and it's amplified. I was thinking, as you said that, imagine in terms of anthropology and biology of how many women a tribal man, let's say, you know, a 100,000 years ago, further back, how many women he'd have to talk to or come into contact with, feel rejection? One, two, maybe. You know? But in in in Covent Garden, in Trafalgar Square, or Regent Street on a Saturday, you might be, you know, chatting to twenty, thirty girls if you're a beginner. It's extreme. Yeah. Anyway, let's shed some rays of hope, Jonathan, because guys are now imagining you eating cream cakes in an alleyway. So there were highs. There have been highs and some stuff was pulling you out of, like, of it, this sounds extreme, this despair. What was helping?

**Speaker 1:** You know, I started to to hang out with the RSD, the rock solid game, the people that did my boot camp. I started to hang out with them and Nick, of course. And and they're so much further along with their inner game, in their game than me, that it's a kind of osmosis happens. Just being around guys who are sorted just started to rub off, you see, oh, it is possible. Look. Wow. Look at they believe this stuff. Mhmm. And the other thing I did was I I went and had some inner game sessions, I suppose you could call them. They you you expose some very painful truths, but, know, in the long term, that that really helped. I suppose if somebody went to do CBT or to a counselor,

**Speaker 0:** you could get anyone, you know, and they wouldn't be sympathetic to this journey or the daygame or red pill. So was this a guy who was

**Speaker 1:** well, obviously, he was red pill. He was a bloke. Yeah. The guy was very the guy was very red pill. I knew all about game. I can't begin to imagine the harm that would befall a guy if he went to see a normal high street therapist or counselor. I mean, a woman? Imagine a guy seeing a woman therapist that wasn't red pill. The harm that would do to his inner game. Even male blue pill therapists or psychologists, they don't know what this is about and what guys go through.

**Speaker 0:** Don't do it. Very rare that you'd find a red pill psychologist. I mean, the closest I find is like in my last podcast when I was talking about people like Professor David Bus, who's an evolutionary psychologist who just gets the evolution of men and women's sexuality. So you could it's someone like that, but there, there's about three guys in the world. Because you can't just talk about that in a high street clinic. You'd you'd they'd call the police you said you were going up to women in Covent Garden and trying to get laid. But so you saw that guy. You spilled you you had to be very honest with him, didn't you? You know, you told him everything about Yeah. Early years. Pretty much

**Speaker 1:** everything, which freaked him out a lot. And that helped. It's it started a process of looking in on myself and thinking, oh, wow. I didn't realize I I had those issues.

**Speaker 0:** And did he bring up anything about, like, extreme misogyny, hardcore misogyny, your attitude to women in general, which for a lot of guys, certainly, red pill guys, early red pill guys, you you have that, the bitter taste of the red pill. Yeah. I was very misogynistic.

**Speaker 1:** You know, years and years of of seething away, thinking that somehow you haven't got what you deserve, that you are x y zed. You're smart. You're intelligent. You have lots of friends. You've worked hard in your job. Mhmm.

**Speaker 0:** Who was the kid that shot oh, Elliot Rogers. Elliot Rogers.

**Speaker 1:** He's quite a case case. Yeah. Was one of these guys that boiled away thinking he was owed something. So had a lot of entitlement. It was very misogynistic. And that was coming out in my relations with women over the years, pregame as well. You know, they're they're wired to to sort of sniff value on men, and they women, they just see they're like x-ray machines. They see a lot more than we give them credit for. And, you know, if you're really bitter and you're misogynistic and you're really entitled, they can smell this. My lord, they can smell this a mile away and it's repellent. It's utterly repellent to women.

**Speaker 0:** I often point out the the playful misogyny of the player. Because there's not a player I know who doesn't have playful misogyny on the level of Chris Rock, Patrice O'Neil. You know that, like, you can laugh about it. You can say, oh, fucking women. But those guys date women. They're very good with women. Patrice O'Neil passed away sadly, but you know, Chris Rock is getting pussy.

**Speaker 1:** After his divorce, he certainly is.

**Speaker 0:** But they love that kind of play from misogyny, but that's so different from dark Yeah. Bottom worlds, Rick Mail, Adrian Edmondson misogyny.

**Speaker 1:** But there's there's a brilliant bit in bottom. I advise people to YouTube it where Rick Mail's on his balcony just looking out over the world and just seething with hatred and he's saying, look at it, look at it, millions of women, millions of women, I just want one.

**Speaker 0:** The one. We haven't talked about any of your daygame success. So presumably, even though there were these the early the what do you call them? The thousand sets of hell. Yep. We'll talk about that in a second. But interspersed with in the thousand sets of hell, there are girls that smile, number closes, maybe an instant date, maybe a date. And then I remember your data sheet. You had this really like it's it's just quite an anomaly for early daygame. You had like a run of five lays or something like nuts. I know this sounds like the happy ending of the story, but it doesn't end there. But didn't you have a run?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. I I had this period where I just started believing in it. And everything clicked, and my pipe was good. And I just went bang bang bang bang bang bang. Lit literal bangs. Yeah.

**Speaker 0:** One in a toilet.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. In a hotel toilet. That was that was a seat of the pants same day lay. I got I managed to go get Krauser laid on that same day with the obstacle, Although he would say he got me laid. Yeah. I had a run of just jaw dropping success. And on the back of that, I found a nice girl who amazingly turned out to be English

**Speaker 0:** and dated her for a year. Mhmm. So guys are going, oh, fucking hell. That's the end of the story. That's the end of the Hollywood film. Found a girlfriend, settled down. You must be married with kids now, John. But since that run, you've had the roller coasters continue to go up and down and very down and then up.

**Speaker 1:** I discovered that there there isn't this perfect Hollywood narrative. I had a run of success, and I discovered, like, meta meta weasels and avoidance. And I fell into this very complex mental traps, like entitlement crept in again. I started to lose the first trap. I I started to just become mechanical in my day game and lose lose the love of it and become joyless and just crunching through numbers. Come on. Let's get the next yes girl. And that wasn't the end of it. It's a constant up and down. With highs and lows, there are bad days and there are great days. Generally, if you stood far enough back from the graph, it's going up. Mhmm. Definitely going up. And now now, even on just average days for me, I'm I'm doing things that I would would have seemed like witchcraft in 2010. Absolute witchcraft. I would have thought it was something out of a movie.

**Speaker 0:** That's a very good point that until you zoom out, that I'm sure there's a scientific name for this concept. We're not seeing the big picture. We're not seeing the big data. So you moan and groan and it's very painful. And we're sitting here actually in quite a nice part of London in a nice hotel. John lives in Soho. You quit your job. John's traveled most of the world or, yeah, a lot of the world. You work when you want, eat when you want, do what you want, and we're still sitting here moaning going, oh, god. You know, this is so fucking tough. But when you zoom out, you're right and you go, holy shit. Like if if I told you that all that stuff would have happened five years ago and that's mental and the girls that well, we were out daygaming today, one for the road, know, and the stuff I saw you do with that, Where was she from? The one outside Hammersmith Shepherd's Okay. Bush. Yeah. Just one of those very dirty sets that you don't even need to listen to. You watch and you just think this is filth. Like, it was just she was just gagging for it in that kind of nonverbal way, you were laying it on thick. Stuff like that. Again, if we'd if I'd seen that five years ago, I probably wouldn't have known what was going on and I just would have thought like, what the how how can you generate this? And now we came away from that again. It's alright. Not bad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Alright. It's alright. So yeah. She was

**Speaker 1:** yeah. Definitely wanted to fuck, fancied me. She's gagging for it. I think she's ovulating. Yeah. I held her hand. Eye, asthma. Unfortunately, she's off now to her boyfriend's flat when I didn't have time to get her for coffee and try and fuck her in the toilets.

**Speaker 0:** What a shame. I suck. Yeah. But the torture goes on. You're right. And I think there's big plateaus as well. We can talk about this another time. It's not exponential. Like, I think guys when we were chatting to guys from the seminar yesterday, guys think that the growth is like this perfectly, you know, exponential curve or straight line. It looks more like a fucking heart rate monitor. You know? And I've said in another podcast, when I've been in relationships in the past, I'm my my emotions are pretty flat stable. You don't feel massive highs or lows. You exist in a kind of a vanilla world, you know. And then daygame, it's just like lines of coke, you know. It's just it's just highs and lows and it's rock and rolling. Oh, there's so much more to talk about. But I do try to limit these to half an hour and I'm knackered and my voice is about to pass out. So guys are sitting there listening going, well, where are you at now? What do you do now? Because you don't have a office job like you used to do. You're living in Soho doing daygame. This sounds a bit like mythical, mystical. What do you do? Because I know I know you help guys, but guys might again, when you say in the game, oh, I help guys within a game. My eyebrows go like, what the fuck? But it's not that at all. What can you explain?

**Speaker 1:** I've been to a few events recently, and I meet guys or, you know, guys would find me online, and I'd meet them for coffee and realize, you know, these guys were me in 2,009, like pregame. And I talked to them. We'd have a coffee and a chat, and then quite a few of them would email. I wouldn't think that much of it. And then but then I'd get an email saying, thanks. Thanks for your time. It was it was wonderful to talk to you. And I thought, what's going on here? And I realized, oh, it's it's that it's that sort of that osmosis thing that I experienced with the RSD guys. And that these guys are they're quite lost and new to it, maybe a bit frightened, and they they've unsettled all of the normal structures that beta sort of normal blue pill guys have in their life. They thought, I don't want the house. I don't want the mortgage. Mortgage. I hate this job. I wanna leave. I wanna fuck loads of girls. And it's terrifying. And and just to meet somebody who's just more settled in that mindset can be really positive for them. So now and again, I meet guys and just talk to them about where they're at.

**Speaker 0:** I mean, you do approach coaching as well, which is the action part of the being beneficial for newbies. But I think what's missing in the help offered, and I don't offer this, is that if you've swallowed the red pill and you've got that bitterness, I preach about, okay, let's go out and take action and that's what worked for me and it does work for a lot of guys. You kind of like bury the problems. I was in denial. I don't have stress, I don't have depression, I don't need to think about inner game and I just plowed on with my action taking and hope for the best. And you could say psychologists would say I suppressed my emotions, but I kind of think that I dealt with them somehow. But there's this whole group of other guys who came from more of the online world like you did because you were into the online stuff far deeper and earlier than me in terms of red pill, quote unquote, manosphere. And a lot of those guys, if they're not taking action, are confused, bitter, and they, apart from venting on forums or comment sections, they've never spoken to anyone because you can't talk to your brother, you can't talk to your dad, you definitely can't talk about this in your work, you'll be fired. So just like chatting to somebody who's been there, done that, and you're very open about like the pain and the stuff, you can probably say, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Do you know what I mean? Like, you don't hold anything back.

**Speaker 1:** No. I just try and be straightforward. I'm not trying to sell this rose tint picture that I'm jet setting and banging supermodels and living on yachts. I I just feel for a lot lot of these guys because I was one of them. And, you you know, there's there's a 100 stories I haven't told here, but when especially when you get in in the red pill, you're just throwing your life upside down. You you will it's quite possible to have little nervous breakdowns and depression. And just meeting like minded people really helps. Mhmm. As well as, as you very rightly say, taking action as well because you don't wanna end up sort of living in this hyperreality, sitting at home where where your reality becomes this red pill world on the Internet of women and the matriarchy and people stealing all your money and immigration and all that nasty stuff. Yeah. That becomes your reality. You don't wanna do that. You need to go out, take action. And also, would say, I talk to people about it, but the right kind of people.

**Speaker 0:** Yeah. It's hard to find. But I'm gonna put your email your current email. Yeah. I'll just link it below. If you're watching this as a YouTube video, then obviously just look below this video. If you're listening on iTunes, God bless you for finding these podcasts on iTunes. I'll try and put it somewhere in a podcast description. If you can't see it, head over to my YouTube channel, which is Tom Torero TV and just find this podcast, podcast 28, and look below and John, I'll put your email, if that's alright, because you're in London. Are you in Soho? Yeah. I'm not here. John's living in my room for the next few months. So you're in London way more than me. You're living in London now apart from your euro joints and stuff. So if if that, yeah, if that touches a chord, if it rings any bells, this podcast, if you've gone through stuff that John's gone through, because I haven't openly talked about lots of the stuff. Interestingly, because when I kept that blog, I guess this is like that phenomena of putting your emotions in a zip bag and throwing it in the river. I only to myself, I only wrote down the positives. It was like some sick Tony Robbins thing. Like, today, I went out and two girls smiled. Whereas you probably went out, wrote down, today, I went out and seven girls frowned. You know? But and eating the cakes. I they they must have happened to me, but I've forgotten them conveniently. So if you wanna chat with John, and you can make it to Central London, and you can have a coffee, or find out more, then yeah, send Jonathan an email. And there's so much more to talk about, mate, that we'll after I come back Another time. We will be reunited like Adrian Edmondson and Rick Mayo in a CD place. In In Hammersmith with some cream cakes to celebrate. Podcast 29, I promise I'm not gonna do any more when I'm traveling, I can't. So this is the last podcast for thirty days. But like I said, the few little vlogs coming at you from each city that I visit in the next thirty days for my world tour. But cheers for listening, guys. I think that's gone over thirty minutes. Cheers to John for coming on. Cheers, mate. Thank you. And, yeah, I'll see you guys, and I'll see John in podcast 29 in thirty days time. Ta da. Bye bye.