---
title: Episode 39 Interview With Justin Wayne
episode_number: 39
era: early
source_file: Episode 39 Interview With Justin Wayne.mp3
audio_size_mb: 96.0
duration_sec: 3145.0
duration_min: 52.4
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.987
transcribed_at: 2026-05-27T17:16:41Z---

# Episode 39 Interview With Justin Wayne

**Speaker 0:** Tom Torero podcast 39. Back on British soil after my crazy Tokyo, Kauai Japanese adventures. And here I am in wild, wet, windy Wales. It's raining outside. It's dark. It's bleak. It's melancholic. It's wintry, but I love it. It's something in the British psyche. It's something in my introverted nature that loves it, you know, bit of downtime, cup of tea, fire on, hibernation, thinking over the daygame year that has gone by, looking forward to travels to South And Central America in January. And I just found out today that I'm off to Iceland. I'm off to Reykjavik in early January. So that's another new daygame adventure coming at you. But for this podcast, let's just dive in because it's gonna be almost an hour long. I have just got off Skype with one of the world's most notorious daygamers and street hustlers, one of New York's finest, an original daygamer who's pioneered a lot of the stuff that you see today, especially with within fields and bounce backs. So without further ado, from Miami South Beach, this was recorded only a few minutes ago. This is my interview with the one, the only, Justin Wayne.

**Speaker 1:** On the line from sunny Miami, it's the one, the only, mister, master, Justin Wayne. Alright, Justin?

**Speaker 2:** Hey. Is this Justin Wayne? It's not master. Maybe mister. I like master Wayne is a lot more like Batman. Oh, yes. He's selling Alfred right now. This is awesome. This is gonna be a great podcast. We have Alfred, and we have mister Exactly. Exactly. It sounds so distinguished, then I'm jealous

**Speaker 1:** to start by to start by saying that you're in not you're not in New York. You're in sunny Miami.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. Yeah. Basically, I decided to go to both places. I'm mostly Miami in this wintertime at this point just because, you know, better weather. I have a few girls down here anyways, and why not? New York is pretty cold, like the nine months of the year for me. So I'm trying to I'm trying to sound happy for you, man, but I'm looking at I'm looking out of a window,

**Speaker 1:** I'm in Wales, which is this rural, dark, wet, cold place, and it's tipping down with rain. Well, it's called Wales after all. Right? Wales love the rain and the water. So I hate you. That's how we're gonna start to focus. I hate you and I love you. So my listeners should know from my little introduction that you're a massively respected East Coast daygamer who, who was a pioneer of infield footage. I mean, I I first heard of you 2,010, maybe 2011, and this was, like, really early stuff with watch cams and pen cams and I you know, like, Those

**Speaker 2:** terrible cameras, man. Yeah. I'm so embarrassed to even think about it now, but those are terrible recordings.

**Speaker 1:** But, you know, but but, you know, historical because, it was pushing pushing the envelope and maybe guys that have just gotten into it recently in the last year or two, they'll know of your, you could say risque stuff, know, really pushing it with infield footage from not just dating but taking a girl home, bedroom escalation, relationship stuff.

**Speaker 2:** Like, you know, you're you're not afraid to show stuff with your footage. Yeah? Well, yeah. And I also break down how I go about doing it too just so people can have an idea. You know, sometimes I did take risks and sometimes, you know, I've got people have gotten back to me. And sometimes I've basically just, you know, over time in a long relationship with a girl, it's easy to convince her to do something. She's already with you. She's already in love with you. Right? So, you know, I would be happy to break down, like, you know, all those small little details, later on. I mean, you can ask me any question. I'll be really happy to oblige.

**Speaker 1:** Very kind. It's nice it's nice to finally speak to you, man. Definitely. Because there's daygame evolved for good reason in New York City and in London for the same reasons. Yeah? And we've obviously got our yo yo? Yeah. I'm here. I'm listening. Alright, man. I'll say that again. London's got its daygame model, and New York's got a different flavor, and you're you're part of the story. You're part of the evolution of the game. And why I wanted to talk to you in particular is because you're experimental. Yeah? I know you're very you're like me. You're you're almost geeky in your, like, scientific, try trial and error. So you try something,

**Speaker 2:** you see if it works, you adapt Oh, yes. Try again. I love it. It's it's it's it's it's only real motivation I have to still be in the game after, you know, having, you know, decent success with women for such a long time. The only thing that really keeps me moving forward is is innovation. But that's just the way I am. I just personally love figuring new things out. Since I was a kid, I used to be in science fairs all the time. And it's just the way I am. I I can't help it. Like, I just can't help it. So

**Speaker 1:** I've heard you say, and it's a line I say with my students, I say know where you are. You know? Where where are you in the interaction? What point are you at in the interaction? And I'm really rebelling against, coaches that perhaps say, you know, just be yourself, wing, give it a I mean, what the fuck does that mean? Especially for a big-

**Speaker 2:** Of course. No. I I I've heard different schools of thought. I I came up in a weird time, like, when I was learning game where I was around natural guys. Well, that's a natural guys. You know, natural got some supernatural power. Just a guy who get who know, who's able to, you know, have what you call basic enough basic confidence and approach girls the right way, you know, in the right way or the right context. Yep. And they would get they get women. So those type of guys would kind of tell me basic stuff, you know. And there'll be a diff a wide range of things where whether it would be like, yo, man, Let me tell you something. Male you gotta do, man. Just like, you know, offer her stuff. You know what mean? Buy her shit. You know what I'm saying? And then make her make her smile. Then then someone else would say, dude, don't buy girl shit. Treat you like so I I'm like but I'm seeing results from both parties. Right? They cannot say results. I mean, some evidence of women in their lives. Right? Doesn't have to be from stranger approach per se. But I've so I was just kind of realized at some point that, hey, like, this is not black or white, and this is something that's worth investigating in. And to and that's basically the best way to get results is just by looking at what already exists, what's there. As I before, God speaks in statistics. That's like my my quote. And basically what I mean is that like, you know, lot of the answers are there. Same how science discovered a bunch of other, you know, great advancements for humankind. It's the same way we could use that approaching game. Why does it have to be a religious thing where or belief that you only have to be direct or you're going to to be indirect or you're to to do domino effect. It doesn't have to be that way. It's more about just, you know, seeking for the truth and continually trying to advance this field that we are collectively contributing to. And I actually view pickup and dating as a science. Because the same way how mating dancing is a is a science, no one complains about scientists talking about how the lions mate. Well, what can't we talk about how we mate and how we use social dominance as a form of mating dance to demonstrate our alphaness over the woman by using such dominance, you know, especially now that feminism is, you know, changes the dating field. But go ahead, Charlie. I wanna I wanna stand up and shout hallelujah, praise Jesus, but that in itself is ironic.

**Speaker 1:** I you're yeah. Yeah. I'm with you a 100%, man, and I preach this daily to my followers and, to those that know of my stuff that this is a science. This has massive, you know, evolutionary roots and explanations. It's not mystical or mysterious. You if you apply yourself and trial through trial and error test this stuff, which, I nag and you nag the guys to do, don't just read about it, but go and test it, the truth emerges. And what's amazing is that the truth that came out of New York City and and you and the other guys in New York five years ago and what happened in London five years ago, we got the same knowledge. We got the same insights. We, you know, we have different names for what we do, but the the fundamental game, a street game from approach to lay approach to relationship, it's the same stuff. It would be a lot it would be alarming if we were coming up with, you know, crazily different theories, but I know your material and, the New York guys know what we do in London. And you know what I mean? Of course. Yeah. And there's just a lot hardwired

**Speaker 2:** behaviors. Of course. A lot of overarching parts. And also, again, if we're all testing a same similar social context, which is people walking on the street, you know, there's gonna be a lot of commonalities, similarities and, you know, difference in style and also structure, but it doesn't mean that there's not overarching principles that are governing these results that we've accumulated over the over the long haul. Well, lesson, because this podcast,

**Speaker 1:** master Wayne, is about your style of game, your history in game, and and the New York kind of feel, and maybe now the Miami feel. Can you wind back and talk about you going from I know you started with social circle. Mhmm. How what was the epiphany? What was the the backstory to cold approach and specifically to to the street?

**Speaker 2:** Okay, well, long story short, I basically was in The Caribbean. I went to, I lived a good ten years in The Caribbean from the age of 10 till like 20. So that's a lot of development in The Caribbean. And I lived in a small island and it's very social circle y and very clicky. And therefore the the good your personal dimensions are not tested that well because it's more about who you know, your friends are, all kinds of stuff. So when I came to America, of a sudden, first of all, I'm seeing New York, seeing beautiful woman, right? Besides that, I was unable to really kind of like get things rolling with women there. Not to say I was a grandmaster before either, I was not anywhere near that. I was wasn't that good with women in general, but I found it even harder to connect with some of these girls. And the main reason why that I didn't understand that time was I was a stranger and I haven't really evolved my personality for that particular social context. Yep. Which is stranger approaching. And, you know, so because for example, the Soul Circle, for example, if get a phone number, even the girl doesn't romantic like you, she still will be more receptive to talk to as a person and treat you with a certain level of respect. You know what I mean? Yeah. Sure. She will still respond to you. Okay. Hey. What's up? How's it going? Okay. Sure. We're we're hanging out this place. You can join us and you join them. And then she's like, you know, hey. You know, well, just so you know, I kinda like as a friend, but you're still really cool. Maybe my friend Sarah might like you. You know? Boom. You know? Trust. You know? Exactly. And and so you get it's less harsh, whereas with cold restraint, with pickup, you know, you can have a decent interaction. Right? And nothing. Right? And that that's basically why I didn't understand. So that pretty bothered me. And so obviously I dive into the literature at that time. And at that time I was in the generation of what you call the first generation of pickup. Yeah. Which is basically, you know, that time it was based on social mechanics, aka the Mystery Method. And that was designed for in club more so, not even in club, in lounge situations where it's kind of social with almost kind of social circle or you can play a social circle esque game, if you will. You know. So, you know, that's the only kind of resources out there. So I kind of, I went to the best thing at that time, which was the Mystery Method, right? At that point in time, it definitely was, especially for that con, because there was no one else there. Nothing else was there really. So I dive into that and obviously I learned a good amount of stuff from, you know, basic social mechanics, you know, the ideas of approaching and the ideas of using material. I think there's a lot of great things in the beginning. Obviously, when it comes to just like connecting with people and talking to people and getting their attention. So, you know, that's basically how I started off doing the Mystery Method type of stuff. Other people as well. But just like, I kinda start off like learning that type of stuff in the beginning. And again, in street game, it just didn't really call it the same way. You know what I mean? Because if someone's walking on the street, it's not the same as if they're in the social environment and having fun and just relaxing or whatever or with their friends, a different kind of context. So I didn't really get that much results from doing that because it was in a different context. So, you know, then basically I kind of started doing what you call the second generation pickup is all about. And a lot of people are still doing this as well, which is basically the idea of, you know you know, forget being social all the time. Just focus on finding the girls. Just like be aggressive and just physically escalate blindly on every girl you talk to that's kind of giving you a talk conversation and filter for the yes girls, which are the or the DTF girls. The girls that are either into you right right off the bat or down to fuck off the bat and just play a numbers game with those type of girls. Even all yes girls you're not gonna sleep with, but especially if you're escalating, but still, why not do it? Right? It's a it's a healthy phase for a guy to go through. You know what I mean? Push the limits, escalate,

**Speaker 1:** learn to be sexual, get some notches on your belt, but it's definitely a phase.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. Well, also too, what it wound up happening was that the few things that I had an issue with this phase. Well, first of all, you know, the number one issue with, like, the sexual the screening game is a, it doesn't work for every person because people have different issues. Different people have different archetypes based on the woman that they're approaching. So, you know, I'm gonna be realistic. I'm a I'm a I'm a black minority. So even even a girl would sleep even if, like, another girl of a different race would sleep with a black guy in the right context. Like, if it's a friend of a friend and she feel completely comfortable on the street, you know, it just, you know, it just, it's more of a numbers game, more of a grind for me just to like go down, like, just do the yes girl game. And also even if it goes yes in the moment, if I can't if I didn't have a logistics to take it home that day, she would still flake me later. Because yes girl just means yes in the moment. So you should try to take it home as soon as possible and have sex with her. DTF girls, same thing. Right? I've had DTF girls where I couldn't get to sleep with because I didn't know where to go. I wasn't creative enough that time. And I just didn't see them again. So I still didn't solve a few of the problems for me, which is a, the flake issue. And b, also another thing too I noticed that most of the time in day games specifically, most of the yes girls or DTF girls wouldn't be the

**Speaker 1:** the girls I really wanted. The top the top tier. Yeah. Exactly.

**Speaker 2:** Or any girl that's above my tier. Right? Whatever my tier was. Yeah. You know, I'll break down to you, like how I measure that as well. Like, how do you measure how's how's a guy measure his own attracted bias? It's very interesting concept. I think it's pretty scientific. You could tell me whether you agree or not, this is the conversation. Yeah. But that's basically what I've noticed. So then there's then then then basically, it's hard to tell what people are doing the the filtering now. It seem like a lot of guys are still doing that. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. It just I still seem very limited. And, for me, it just wasn't enough. And also it's very hard for me to keep you from that. Go ahead. Just historically,

**Speaker 1:** what were what year what kind of years were you doing this, mass approaching and when when did you start the filming?

**Speaker 2:** Okay. That's a good question. So when I was doing mass approaching, I wasn't really filming yet. It's maybe one or two small little things like a cell phone with my girl in my room, that wasn't really like a pickup video. No. So I started filming in 2012. Right? Early, like, January 2012. Right? That's when I started. And, you know, before that point, I've I've discovered what you call the surgery and pickup, which I was going into, which was what I call a surgery and pickup, which which only makes sense, which is like instead of selling sex to women, which is a screening for Yesko game, trying to create some form of romance, which is like basically, you know, selling women romance. I don't know if people know about my stuff. I'll just take it down here. You know, I think the ultimate thing you can proposition or market or communicate or subcommunicate to a woman is romance. It's the one thing that, you know, that every woman intuitively wants who is biologically straight. And I've noticed it's extremely powerful because, again, women put on makeup. Everything women do is for romance. And also every even the media supports romance as well, equally, know, with all these romance novels, they love songs. So all these things collectively just make romance the killer, the awesome, the best kind of like marking tool or, you know, I always just call it selling romance, you know, to women. The

**Speaker 1:** obviously for all of our listeners is when maybe a new guy listening to this will think romance. Okay. Disney romance, flowers, flowers, poems. Oh, I was I knew I was right. And that's not at all what you're talking about, is it? I know exactly what you're talking about in terms of this this bubble, this adventure, this movie excitement, this this range of emotions. Yeah? Yeah. That that quote, you know, men give romance for sex and women give sex for romance. It's understanding what, women are in this game for, provide providing and protection

**Speaker 2:** and a long term deal, you know? Of course. And, you know, for lots of biological reasons that we can go into. And I'm glad that you got that question because I probably wouldn't have thought about asking that. It shows just so how much good of a teacher you probably were back in the day. Oh, I just

**Speaker 1:** I just I can imagine lots of guys now thinking, you know, it is okay to be like the guy in the romantic comedy.

**Speaker 2:** No. No. No. So yeah. So I wanna clarify that quickly. Yeah. Because you're right. It's we talk about, like, basically, like, real life romance, and it's not it's not the same way it's depicted. It's almost like fighting, like, in the martial arts. Before the UFC in 1993, UFC basically means ultimate fighting championships. Yeah. Before that, no one had an idea which style would have been the best style in real life use. They had kung fu, they had taek wondo, that karate, that boxing. Normally knew what would be the dominant styles because, you know, Hollywood would would market kung fu as such. Right? So people would assume that, like, to be a good fighter, you have to kung fu. But reality was a very ugly kind of sport, which was called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is a wrestling, grappling on the ground type of thing for one on one fighting. So, you know, it's the same thing in reality when it comes to romance. Like the actual romance thing is it's not, you know, it's not just one simple thing of like, okay, can you give her a flower and be all sappy and be a pushover and and beg for her with flowers in the rain when she doesn't talk to you anymore. It's nothing like that

**Speaker 1:** I'm at gonna have to stop stop doing that.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. Yeah. See, all the listeners out there to doing that, none of that. But instead what it really means is this. It means that in the initial pickup, what I try to do is I try to basically sell her this idea of me being a worthwhile potential Yeah. Boyfriend. Right? Now we're potential boyfriend doesn't mean I'm telling her upfront. I'm lying to her, tricking her saying, hey, I I wanna be in a serious relationship with you. That's what I'm really looking for in my life. So I'm not telling them that specifically. And even if I did, it would be kind of weird and and socially miscalibrated, but I'm not telling them that at all. What I'm tell what I'm doing instead is that I'm I'm I'm whatever I'm doing, all the actions and things I'm doing are aligning with someone that she would be in relationship with. That's basically what I'm doing. Yeah. You're

**Speaker 1:** pushing those buttons

**Speaker 2:** Exactly.

**Speaker 1:** Which which I think in our equivalent, just our terminology, I would call that like the bubble. Yes. You and her in this bubble and it's like a film.

**Speaker 2:** It is beautiful. It's so beautiful.

**Speaker 1:** You're famous for the quick juice or the, the, a little park adventure. Cheap the cheap juice date. Okay. Yes. Oh, that's good, man. I'm I'm famous for, like, a really cheap, bicycle ride through the parks of London on those little, you know, those bikes you pay for Oh, yes. By the hour. Anything like that That's pretty adventurous actually. That movie moment. And, yeah, some of those girls that maybe wouldn't be yes girls, you can see in their eyes and thinking, oh, okay.

**Speaker 2:** Of course. Because now there's more incentive. Right? So because again, you're selling them something that, you know, going to this bike ride or whatever, sell them something that like, you know, it only happens in romance novels. Some alignment with what they already market to and plus subconscious and biologically something that like, okay, well, this guy is more than just sex. Yep. He can offer me more than just sex. Because again, women sex is not that bad at all. It's like, you know, like woman can fuck any guy of model caliber if they wanted to just for sex that is. And they know it. So the only thing that is valuable to them is romance. Right? So even if a girl again, like, I have a lot of basic where it's not it hasn't been that serious. Like, they won't like, oh my god. Like, do not tell me my boyfriend. No. Of course not. It's like a progressive thing. Like, it takes me a few days before or, you know, a weeks or whatever before the girl's like, really, okay. We should be boyfriend and girlfriend. So then it can be yeah. Go ahead. It can be,

**Speaker 1:** for us and for them, it can be like this romance bubble that lasts two weeks. Like, I was just in Tokyo. I had a thing with a girl. It was you could say, quote, unquote, romantic, but she knew I was going home. But it was that's what you mean by these Exactly. Mini relationships. Yeah. And and there's also potential in her mind, and maybe in yours too, that perhaps Yeah. You can rejoin at some point. Yeah. These are beautiful moments in life anyway. You know, they go once you've done enough notches and those kind we call them grot fucks. You know, like Yes. Just quick quick lays in toilets or, like, you drag them home and they're okay, but it's just It's fair. You know? I I don't like it, to be honest. Yeah. I'm I'm a very comfortable guy. Like, I love to comfortable, personally. So

**Speaker 2:** I like to really enjoy sex. And if again, also to one thing I wanted to also say about the romantic connection thing that the third generation pickup, which is selling romance, is that it it cures a lot. It it I I would say, basically, it cures all problems with pickup. Right? In terms of, like, the flake issue. Right? Now let's say if a girl is a yes girl and you just she's sexually available and then she you can't take home that day. She's still very likely to flake you again. You know, me again, because like there's nothing else there that was so communicated really. Right? Yeah. You know, so you still get higher flake rate even something for yes girls because it's really only that good for girls in the moment with you on the spot as opposed to, you know, seeding them for later. So, you know, what I did what I tried to instead was, hey. You know, I can't always pull the girls every time I'm out because it's like a lot of work at Valley Logistics. Right? I know I was like, well, what if I can solve this flaking problem? Me and everyone else at that time I knew that we really had this huge flaking problem. What if I can actually alleviate it? You know, and basically, after I started studying my man's by something called the domino effect, which is a structure I teach, not the style, but the structure. That kind of made anything else easier, which made it easier for me to, like, get a lot more consistent results of getting a lot more of, it's like getting a solid phone number and then parting ways and having her see me again. And it's still and even weird thing that sex would happen much easier in those situations, not all the time, but easier in general than when I was sometimes like pushing, pushing, pushing for sex that day. And also too, it would be more enjoyable, not all time, but it'd be more enjoyable on average the first time sex. And then it was much easier for me to keep seeing them at that as well because they have incentive to see me again and again and again based on what was originally kind of like established beforehand, which I call the romantic connection between both parties. There's a there's an there's an efficiency to it as well.

**Speaker 1:** Huge efficiency. I remember this was I think you I think it was a blog post you wrote. This was years ago. And I passed it around to a few people because you weren't knocking cold approach. You said you have to go through this phase of learning, it's pretty brutal, know, street street approach, bounce back, same day lays, kiss closes, escalating hard. But after that, a pickup artist who's who's also, you know, getting older himself, he realizes that whilst that's fun, the inefficiency of it means that then then, as you said, there's another level where you're you're gathering maybe girls, you're meeting maybe girls as friends, you're, establishing a social circle, not because it's like one of these cheap plots to because you can't do cold approach. I know guys out there who do social circle because they're just scared It's better. Scared of the approach. But it's yes. Yes. You can better. If you can combine them both. You know what I Beautiful.

**Speaker 2:** It's so much easier when you combine them both with the with the cold approach that you've you've accumulated. We were talking about, yeah, your Miami lifestyle and why

**Speaker 1:** you did your New York years, but now now you're focusing on lifestyle.

**Speaker 2:** Well, okay. So yes. So I wanna break it down. So after they're the whole romantic connection stuff, now keep in mind, I am a dating coach and a quote unquote innovator. Right? I've gained to some degree. Right? So I'm always innovating new things. Like, for example, I'm working on something called the super date. Right? Which is even even I don't have to do it. Like, fuck it. Why not? Like, I can't help it. Right? So, like like, even though all the like like, most of the girls I've met in my life right now that I have were from daygame pickup. Right? Yep. That I've shown the girls I got tattoos and stuff like that. But keep in mind, that's my job as well. I have incentive. I make money from doing this as well. So it's not needed for most people to even reach all do all that stuff. Right? It's not needed at all. It's

**Speaker 1:** the world's bizarrest job.

**Speaker 2:** Exactly. Right? To to go to that extreme. So in reality, when I wrote that post, it was called I think I remember it's called. It's called something about like stranger the truth about stranger approach. And basically, was trying to say that stranger approaching is not designed for true social fulfillment. And I you know, because since it's still a new field, like, we know that? We we didn't we didn't know any better. We just had to dive in and see what happens. But when you look around at, you know, people with quality women, there's a few things. Obviously, yes. In most cases, almost all cases, I've kind of asked people that had to know each other. When I sit when I saw a particularly very beautiful woman, most of time it was some kind of natural soul circle setup or online dating in which they she was already knew that she wanted to look for a guy. So therefore, you know, the social context was much better than the stranger approach when you approach a random person who has no intention of being picked up at that moment. So there's something to be said about that from a scientific perspective, you know, the concept of your approach actually dictates momentum a lot more than your techniques that, you know, based on what I've noticed. So when I look at all of this stuff, I'm like, well, a lot of cool, normal guys who bang these beautiful, gorgeous woman, Right? And it doesn't mean that they're banging 10,000 beautiful women all the time. It just means that they have access sometimes to some beautiful women. Yep. Do you think they can do strange approach? No. But if it so it's like, if these so called natural guys meet girls in natural ways, which is generally not signature post most of the times, or it's pretty dating taking a few tree game pickup, then it's like, why are we who are quote unquote less natural, right, going the hardest way to possibly meet women and stressing ourselves out about it and being so hard on ourselves. Yeah. Right? Like, if you actually just look around and pay attention to what's really happening, it's like this shit is like the Olympics for the most part. Now it has its pros. It makes you a lot more skilled. It definitely helps your social awareness. It helps you in a lot of different ways. But a lot of guys, including myself, would get so hard on myself when I wasn't as consistent yet. I would beat myself up. I felt this was something wrong with me inherently. I would see guys, beautiful women on the street and not recognize or remember that, hey, you know, like, he met her in a totally different context and totally different, you know, situation. In

**Speaker 1:** my in my new material, I call it respecting the hustle. Yeah? Because I'm sure you were the same as me. We used to be daygame purists, You know? And you look at a guy who's doing social circle or even night game, and I used to say, ah, he's he's not brave enough for the streets. You know? He that's that's yes. You know? That's that's not the hustle. But now as I zoom out and I get older, I say, okay. Fuck. Yeah. If you're a DJ, god bless you. You know? If you're a male model, god bless you. If you've got a massive Vegas social circle, god bless you. It's a hustle, man, and and it's all work. You know?

**Speaker 2:** Of course. Even yeah. Because the great thing about these guys, the soul circle is though, like one disclaimer versus making your own soul circle. I've experimented all kind of nonsense. Right? Yeah. Is that if it's out of like an organic kind of thing that you love to do, then that's when it's the easiest to do because you're not constantly looking, you're not constantly doing it for women alone. So let's say if I was to build a social circle only for the pursuit of women, it's a lot more exhausting. Yep. You know what I mean? Because, you know, like my only goal is to get women. So I'm a lot more impatient. Whereas another guy would meet a girl for maybe a year later after he kind of established a legit girlfriend. He'd probably bang a few, but legit hot girlfriend maybe a year later, but he still enjoy his social so much that it didn't really matter. You know what mean? Yeah. Whereas like, you know, some guys who try to social coach now who pick PUAs, pickup artist, they kind of get too antsy because they're not paying they're not really focusing on just you're not finding something they love to do and stuff like that. So I think that's been the kind of caveat with like, you know, when we say soul circle, we mean like a natural setup of like DJs, as you said before, because they love music. Not doing it only for the woman. Yeah. And time to do something only for the woman, it's gonna be more jarring because, you know, women are very kind of unreliable creatures.

**Speaker 1:** That's oh, yeah. In a nice way. In nice way. In a nice way. Like the nature. Like puppies. You gotta love them. Yeah. Yes. Coming back coming back to your style of game in particular, if I say to people your name, Justin Wayne, especially in in Britain and Europe, you're you're known well for two things, I would say. One is compliance momentum. Right? Using physical game. A lot of guys know you for baby steps because they're watching these extreme, you know, whatever one hour bounce backs, one day bounce backs. Compliance momentum. So if you can talk about that. And secondly, if you can talk about not being direct, not being indirect, but having a kind of a switch between the two guys are fascinated by what that is. Okay. So sorry, I'm I'm a little bit ADD.

**Speaker 2:** It's first of I was a bad student, So No. No. Mister mister Torero, you could please start the first question again. I'll

**Speaker 1:** give you a sticker after. That's very good. Compliance momentum. Physical little physical things so you know where you are and you're getting you're just seeing by escalating where you are on the spectrum.

**Speaker 2:** Alright. Cool. Yes. So before I'm gonna preface this by saying this. I always back in the day, we both kind of came up in a very verbal esque pickup community. Yep. And one day I kind of realized like, believe it or not, my verbals were actually better. I mean, they're better probably better now than they're on videos. Right? Like I'm probably better speaker in general than in the pickup videos. But even so, if my verbiage were better in my pickups, when I was sucking with women versus now I can, I'm like rambling like a little child, but it doesn't matter because I've learned at one point that, hey, like in terms of like, you know, the laws of like communication, like touches a lot more, it communicates to the brain a lot stronger than you know, verbals because verbals are left open for interpretation, all kind of other stuff. It's easier for someone to fight that. So for instance, if I tell you something's hot. Right? You you can imagine it, but you don't really feel it. So it doesn't impact you that much. But if I say, hey, Tom, touch this. And you touch it out. Damn. It's hot. Ouch. Yep. Then you really felt it. You know for sure. You feel it on a very visceral level. It's the same thing in anything else. Even from a biological perspective, we learned how to touch and stuff like that. And in order to communicate with each other before we were able to verbally communicate effectively. So Zach is even deeper, you know, in terms of like in development, as a touching. So touching is like, you know, in my opinion, like one of the earliest form of communication way before verbal and all that other stuff. So one day I kind of just noticed that, you know, like I wasn't I wasn't getting anywhere. So was like, fuck it. Let me just be like a little bit more touchy and forget all the verbal shit. Because I kinda got burned out of like, it's the only storytelling and it's a long conversation and these long ass fucking dates. And a lot of them was still flaking tremendously. Yeah. Might I add. It was, you know, and I was was tempted to go back to the Paul Jenkin method. We don't let me just like get fucking numbers for the one minute and call it a day. Because like, I couldn't figure out. Anytime I did longer game, fuck I failed. So so that's so that's a big risk thing right now. Like, taking longer game, you know what mean? Like, we don't know where to go. You don't know where you're going is fucked up because you actually waste a lot of time. It's not just as flaky as being a fast phone number. I don't know. Don't if you noticed that. Like, if you had no direction in your pickup and you talk to a girl for, like, like, a fucking two hours, they still got a flake. I'm like, what? I recently tweeted that, like, the longer you talk to a girl, the less chance you have of fucking her. Yeah. It's it's a weird thing. It's hard to Yeah. So so so that's why that's why, like, instead of talking to her, I'm like, well, I'll just escalate on her. Because the more escalate, the more she takes it, the more likely I'm to fuck her. Right? It is Yeah. So it's like It lets you know it lets you know exactly where you are. Oh, that too, obviously.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Because talking

**Speaker 2:** she can lie her ass off. Oh, yeah. Also, because there's a time where I did some tests where a girl would say, oh my god, you're just so cute. Right? Or some shit like that, like, when I'm talking to her. Yeah. I'm like, oh, come here. I'll try to hug her or something, and she's like, like, feeling very uncomfortable with it. Yeah. So she wasn't truly attracted to me. She just thought she would have been maybe because she wanted to believe she was attracted to me or whatever. Yeah. But she just wasn't. Or in reverse in reverse when she says I have a boyfriend and I'm not gonna have sex with you. But Yes. I love to hear that. She accepts the handhold. She accepts the hug. You know? Exactly. So that's why at at one point I was like, you know what? You know, it's like with the old guy said, think Wolfs Watch Chef he said once in the show, know, it doesn't matter what they say they want, what they think they want, what they respond to. And that's a scientific kind of response to what's happening here. And that's all I cared about, what did they respond to the most? So when I first started doing that, obviously, I didn't really saw the flaking problem yet as much, but I was getting laid more, you know, the more often, not like a lot, lot, lot, like, you know, on this level as all, but it was still like, it was still more definitely. Like, I I still felt better. And it felt it felt more validating too, like getting close to sex than staying on that plateau of a conversation.

**Speaker 1:** Do you just on a technical level, do you how quickly do you if you're walking off on an instant date with them, are you holding their hand?

**Speaker 2:** Okay. So now now I'm gonna go technical. I was going a little a lot more, like, rudimentary just now. From a technical perspective, you know, I I believe in stuff like Bruce Lee or even Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is the idea of you go with the flow. You see what's presented for you to you and you strike it and you try to then dictate the pace after that. So whether it comes to opening or whatever, I'm always kind of like seeing what they do now and then move forward from that. Again, I'm not like it's very natural at this point. I'm not like having like, you know, like a Venn diagram or anything like when I'm doing this. But, you know, it's just like fighting. It's like fighting. It's like, come on. It's the same thing. If someone's fighting, you know, like, obviously someone punches you can duck the next way. So that way you don't get hit. Right? I mean, it's it's mechanics. It's it's it's it's it's it's mating dance. It's it's a it's a flow. It's like the main dance sometimes that the woman battling with you. Like, no. I'm not interested. No. You're not the type of No. No. No. No. No. Right? So it's like it's a fucking battle like if a mating dance. It's backwards and forwards. Exactly. Right? And and the fact and you're you're you're demonstrating a social dominance, which doesn't fall by touching as well. Well then, you know, can try and make me you know, make make it more triumphant that generates attraction, generates a lot of other things, momentum, and also ultimately, it can help you generate romance as well. So, you know, that's basically the way I go about it. So, yes, I do have a very structured way of escalating in general. Now it feels more natural now because I've done it so much times. But at one point, I've had the you know, it had, like, know, I teach people, like, different steps they can take.

**Speaker 1:** It's the it's the frustration for the the beginner or you could say the intermediate where you you have, like, this bag of tricks that definitely works, you know, but you have to throw them away. You know, there's that stage of pickup where you have to say, fuck it. I'm gonna, I I call it being in the flow. I guess you call it the Brazilian jujitsu. You know, where you have to you forget what you've learned and that Oh, yes. Yes. That's totally different from an instructor saying be yourself. Because you can only do this once you've learned all those little moves and tricks and, lines and little, you know, kino routines, old school shit.

**Speaker 2:** Yep. And you know what's funny? I actually heard a quote like that today. I'm gonna try to recall it. It's not my original quote, but, you know, you can master it's a quote about, like, mastering music, whatever. You can you can master the saxophone and you can master the music.

**Speaker 1:** Yep.

**Speaker 2:** But after that, you know, you throw it away and fucking play. Basically the ideology was like, you know, you learn all this stuff, but at the same time, you know, you have to figure it out on your own because here's the thing. So here's the problem with this essay question. Again, I get very technical. I'm afraid to go so fucking deep in advance for the audience. I know you would be able to keep up definitely. You would know what's going on, but the audience. So there's something called style versus structure that I talk about. Right? And, you know, obviously I teach more structures generally speaking, but the problem with styles is that a true styling, my style, whatever the quirky humor or, you know, how fast I decide to escalate is not necessarily what another person should do. Yep. Because everyone has a unique set of advantage and disadvantages based on their archetype, the type of goals they're approaching, you know, the atmosphere, all this all this stuff that, you know, you know, you have to measure out, you have to balance out that with your stuff. So for instance, if you are a very short guy and you you have an a stereotype to be very timid as well, let's say you're Asian guy, whatever, then, you know, you're better off really like maybe working to deepen your voice and working on vocal projection more and and and coming off more tough because you have to make up for that deficit of both the stereotype and also just the natural kind of biological kind of perception of what he's a smaller guy. Yeah. It's

**Speaker 1:** coming back to that playing to your strengths, you know?

**Speaker 2:** And that could dictate the speed of what your escalation will generally Exactly.

**Speaker 1:** And and I say to guys, even though girls are hardwired the same, the song that you the the song that they sing that you play them the the chords to underneath, you know, that's different on where this I you know, I'm meeting a girl in Tokyo, in Moscow, in New York. Mhmm. Miami girls are different to New York girls. And I'm not saying that the the dance is different, but I'm saying, like you say, the tempo

**Speaker 2:** is different. You know? Yes. It it is the social context as well. So let's say so that's what I'm saying. So so that's why at the end of the day, it's hard to just, like, do a copy and paste method. Yep. You know, in terms of your style. So, you know, no matter what, if you're be on any kind of quote unquote advanced level, you know, you have to, you know, basically take what comes, go with the flow and be adaptive. It's something you can avoid. Even though the idea of having, you know, carbon copy, you know, cookie cutter template sounds amazing. And it and again, a template will still render you better results than without any at all. Yeah. I think for a beginner, it's almost useful to pretend that there is

**Speaker 1:** just this one thing because then the beginner just sticks at this little machine

**Speaker 2:** until he's intermediate. You know? Exactly. And and the thing about intermediate and is the that's I think intermediate could be one of the most frustrating parts of the game. It wasn't for me. And one of the reasons why is that, okay. So when I reached the flaking sticking point, like again, I know people get flake all the time. It's not a big deal, to me it's a fucking big deal. Because I really buy my time. Right? And after a while, man, I was just like, listen. I I'm aware. I'm educated. I know the return on investment principles and all this other stuff. I'm like, yo, dude. Like, am I what they is it flaking worth it? Even if I even if you get to get the clothes, like, it still doesn't go anywhere beyond that and you have to go back out hunting for days, it's like, come on. Yep. I I it really burnt me out. So I used to quit game. I quit game a few times actually between us. I really did because, you know, I just didn't really like,

**Speaker 1:** you know, the grind. Yeah. I'll be honest, all the time. It's the burnout. I think all all good PUAs I know have burnout and hibernation

**Speaker 2:** and Yeah. You have

**Speaker 1:** especially cold approach, street approach. I don't think guys realize how brutal it is in cities like London and New York. You know? Yeah. I mean, again, I've came different places as well. And if you're in a very busy

**Speaker 2:** city with people who have busy lifestyles, people who are worrying about money all the time and have to hustle for their jobs. What happens if you take a let's take let's take a take a look at a particular, you know, attractive girl's life, right, in London or New York City, any really big house of publicity. Sure. First of all, you know, that, you know, any person in that city, they're this is it's by the the standard living is much higher, but they because rent in those areas are very expensive. So that's one worry. Second worry is money because they, okay, I need to work. Also, just getting from back to back to forth from work, whatever, that's exhausting as well. So and you they only had, like, time for, like, a few friends here and there. And after they don't have time for that much else. Even they made me the cool guy in the street where they don't know, and there's, you know, nothing really else out there, you know, like, that time. It's just a lot more energy for them to see you again as well. You know? So it's not like they're bored, have nothing to I I'm gonna meet you. A lot of times, they always have something they could be doing. Yeah. Which makes it so which is why in New York and London, even though it's a good place to get some decent facts in the beginning, it's still is an illusion as to the idea of, well, the more girls do, the more that you get laid, or the more it's not necessarily always true. Or the more likely you find a hot girlfriend, that's not true at all. Sure. And then You know? And it's very competitive over there too, because you're competing with guys who who like like like like, you know, like one girl one girl I'm I have right now in the girlfriend series, she she goes by the name of Lindsey. Right? There. I mean, she has her own person. Like, don't give out the personal first name all the time. Right? Her name we call it Lindsey. She's dated billionaire before billionaire before me. Literally. Yeah. And like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just they have like a random option. So maybe if I met her a little bit earlier and she's already, she's with him to lab his lifestyle at that point, it would be a lot more harder for me to probably penetrate through that. You know what I mean? Because it's just so much competition in these type of big cities as well. Know New York for sure. I'm sure London as well. But New York has like in terms of like the social status scene of like the hot girls always gonna go to the the top top top guys of the status status bullshit. Oh, It Yeah. It certainly

**Speaker 1:** is fantastic for learning like the first couple of years of game. I recommend any guy to go to New York or London for daygame because it's, you know, they're the meccas but then, and I suppose this finishes up with where you are right now, to avoid this burnout, to avoid this, just stuck in this cold approach, eternity. You've moved to Miami, you've built a different kind of a life, obviously you're successful with your business. I mean, where where are you now? What's the what what are you looking forward to? What's the vibe? Okay.

**Speaker 2:** Well, I think I'm just gonna retire and be a chode. Yeah. I do it. I'll play a play. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** That's what I tell everyone.

**Speaker 2:** So so basically so just to clarify a few things. I am actually I live both New York and Miami. And, you know, I I go to LA sometimes too. So I'm in the love triangle of sorts. Vegas is a bit too crazy for me. I just don't feel like getting any more STDs that I've had so much time, so much of of. I'm pretty much Your will be happy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, the amount of I have to go to the clinic and stuff. I'm just keeping it real. So I'm I'm fine now supposedly, but the point is that, you know, I kind of just decided to slow down for a lot of reasons. A, the truth is this, when I first started filming 2012, a lot of people don't know this, but I was already kind of like, I already stopped gaming a lot. Like, wasn't I actually last time I really pushed myself a lot was 2010 and maybe 2011 a little bit. But 2010 was like the ending of like, you know, the massive approaches, the closing crazy lay count in a year and all that nonsense. So by 2012, even though it looked like I was like this this gamer with enthusiasm and stuff like that, I was already burnt the fuck out, dude. You know, but just that I had nothing documented. So I'm like, fuck, here I go. Right? It's like, I did all this work and it wasn't ever documented. Right? So shit. So that's basically, you know, I I stayed in the game a little extra longer just for like, you know, just to to document the methods and show the people how it can work in real life in my style and my structure. And, you know, that's what we I think the most the the popular video at that time was what you call the the mall video. Yeah. It's your viral video, I guess. Yeah. There's one we we have viral more viral videos after that too. Girl asked for sex, that YouTube took that down. That was too raunchy. And there's some a few other videos as well. But the mall video was was only the reason why I think the mall video was the best video that we've shown was only because it showed the idea of consistency within a short period of time. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we still showed follow-up dates for the girls as well and going to the home. Obviously, couldn't show the sex because that's just, you know, you can't do that too much on YouTube and stuff. But besides that, it was like a a really kind of like show what I what I what I know type of stuff that I was able to to perform with this, the skills and the teaching that I've I've I've accumulated over the years. Because I wanna show people that game can be consistent. Doesn't mean it has to be every time, but I wanna show people that it can be. So even though people might argue, say, well, you you met with three girls and so you saw them again or whatever, but maybe you have you put a thousand girls, you know, just to do that. Obviously, I think we're both you're smart enough to know that in a mall within two hours, it's like within, like, even through the mall, like, you can't push that much people in the mall without getting, like, without getting kicked out, you know? But that's basically like at that time so all those times when I was doing the all that videos, all those videos and stuff like that, I I kind of already slowed it down at that time. So I didn't just I didn't just slow it down now. I and I already started keeping goals in my life before that. It's just that, you know, based on what I showed to the public, I didn't really want you know, I I still I still didn't want to tell people, oh, I'm take I'm chilling out now, you know, because then people get the wrong idea because they're not gonna understand how hard I I had to put in the work. Yeah. It's the it's

**Speaker 1:** the side of YouTube and and fields that, I mean, only only we know. That do guys assume you like that forever? That you're always on that Not. Dude. Definitely

**Speaker 2:** not. Like like, definitely not at all, man. Like, again, like, I have to do it for a demonstration purpose, of of course, I will. I'm I'm very competitive naturally. I'm not gonna lie. So if like, I would actually go into conferences for fun, not not for like machism, but just for the kind of scientific inquiry. And I and just I love competition. I love video game competitions. I love to, you know, demonstrate

**Speaker 1:** technique.

**Speaker 2:** This is fun too. Yeah. It's just like fun. It's like it is stupid. Like, I always love playing sports too. I always love playing video games. Like, I'm very competitive in Mortal Kombat. Like, even more than pickup ship, of course. Like, I'm I love it. Like, it's just a fun thing. But again, that's just me. So, you know, so I I like doing that that type of stuff anyways. But now what but but basically what had based on my personal life, basically, was just basically all I really wanted is a few girls that are very attracted to and keep them on rotations and sometimes bang a new chick here and there when I feel like Because how much time even let's say you have, like, five girls. Right? Actually, that's a lot. Right? That's a three So even a kind of, you know, Yeah. Even on three, it gets like a an that's your week gone, really. Exactly. And plus, if you're still seeing a gay girls' casing throughout that, it's it's it's so a lot of people have this kind of method, like, banging, like, thousands of girls on this nonsense. Dude, it's like, dude, like, you know, like, if if you can get, like, three, four hot chicks and stuff like that and then see new girls here and there, that you don't really need a even that could be too busy for most people if you have a job. Remember, we don't have fucking normal jobs. So Just gets your body's drained. Oh, yeah, dude. Like It's not natural per week, you know, to Yeah. So I mean, so so that's the last time I saw I've had for a while. Right? And, you know, obviously, I figured out how to manage that over time. But like, it's still even but it's still a better lifestyle to have than chasing girls in the pavement every fucking week and doing the same thing over and over and over again. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Like, if you've met a beautiful woman that you're attracted to, especially, what's point about only banging her once for the most part and then kinda looking for another girl over and over again? And next girl might not be as hot either. So it's like, you know what mean? I I just never understood why people like are chasing, you know, the the infinity sign. He needs to be running around in circles. It's a healthy point to

**Speaker 1:** a lot of guys won't have heard that before, so it's nice you bring it up, mate. Because in London in the London scene, it's called the the notch count hyena, you know, where you become so obsessed with the the notch count or proving yourself. And it comes down to proving yourself to other guys, know. It becomes this catch 22. Yes. So it's not exiting the game. You're just kind of feasting on the rewards of working hard, You know? And it's nice to hear that you're doing it, man, especially in Miami for a little bit of the year. Like I said, I hate you. I'm jealous. I'll be out there. I hope I'm I'm sure I'll I'll meet you in Miami next

**Speaker 2:** year, man. I'll be out there. Of course, man. Just let me just definitely let me know, man. And we'll just chill out and relax, man. And just so you know, like, a lot of guys assume, like, when we we hang out, I'm gonna be like, yeah. That's a push girl. Ain't gonna Good. Good. Hey. I'm I'm more chill, dude. Like, I'm much even like, Alex from RSD came well, the ex RSD came over, and we just chilled, man. Like,

**Speaker 1:** Definitely. Definitely, take me a couple of jet skis. I'll race you on the jet ski,

**Speaker 2:** I'm very competitive, We'll Get find out,

**Speaker 1:** training. Get training, buddy. I'm coming at you. Alright. No problem, buddy. No problem, man. Great Britain in The US Of A. Anyway cheers, that was marvelous. We could go on for days but it's coming up to an hour so I guess we'll do another one in the new year when live and let's see what happens in the future. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on Justin. No problem Tom. It's been great. And if guys want to check out your stuff then if you're listening on iTunes, go to the description. If you're listening to this on YouTube, click underneath this video and you'll get all of Justin's, sexy links. There you go. Cheers, Justin. Cheers.