---
title: Episode 60 Black Dragon Interview
episode_number: 60
era: early
source_file: Episode 60 Black Dragon Interview.mp3
audio_size_mb: 63.8
duration_sec: 2090.8
duration_min: 34.8
language: en
provider: deepgram
model: nova-3
diarized: true
confidence: 0.998
transcribed_at: 2026-05-28T06:55:46Z---

# Episode 60 Black Dragon Interview

**Speaker 0:** Tom Torero podcast 60. Another guest this week who I've been trying to get on for a while. Not physically present when I recorded the podcast yesterday, but we did it over Skype. He's in America. He's called Caleb and he runs a blog called blackdragonblog.com. Mister Black Dragon himself. I've been, meaning to get him on because last year, at the end of last year, sent me a link to his blog and I think I took a quick look at it and just assumed it was just another manosphere thing. The manosphere being a collection of writers, thinkers on the internet who are often whining, moaning, bitching. They have the kind of victim mentality. It's a bit of keyboard jockery. Yet some of the facts they're presenting are true but I avoid it and I tell my students to avoid it because it's just quite a dark place that some men never come out of. Anyway, fast forward to January of this year or maybe early February and two other guys sent me links to the same blog saying, Tom, you have to read this guy, black dragon slash Caleb. He is about nomadic living, minimalist living. He believes in non monogamy yet he's not just about pump and dump. He also talks about affection. Blah dee blah dee blah dee blah. Read it. Read it. Read it. So on a train journey, did. I sat down and skimmed, scanned most of the blog and I was so impressed. It was like a voice in the wilderness. It, wasn't playing the victim. It wasn't just whining and moaning. It wasn't them versus us. His blog, Black Dragon blog, is full of practical information about leading the non monogamous lifestyle, the purity fantasy, the myth of the one, passive income, world travel, looking after yourself and most importantly, sustained long term looking after yourself in terms of your overall happiness. So banging hot girls, being part of that. Anyway, this is the conversation I had with Caleb yesterday over Skype. Forgive the quality, it's a little bit patchy. I was in a random Polish city where the WiFi was shite. Anyway, little bit of background on Caleb before we kick off. He's in his early forties. He was married. He has kids but he's been sustaining this non monogamous thing for the past ten years doing it very successfully, keeping girls around. So we talk about polyamory, ways to keep things open, to stop her cutting your balls off, how to balance pickup goals with a wide omission and as I said importantly sorting yourself out before trying to save the world.

**Speaker 1:** So finally on the line from the West Coast Of The US Of A, it is the black dragon himself. Caleb. Caleb, are you there? I'm there. How are you? I'm very well. I'm in a former Soviet apartment block, almost as luxurious as your West Coast lifestyle, I'm sure. Almost. Yeah. Quite, but almost. Yeah. I can see a brick wall, and a beggar with no teeth.

**Speaker 2:** That's great. I can see a blank white wall because I'm a man and I don't know how to decorate.

**Speaker 1:** Minimalist. Which As minimalist as as minimalist as I can. Which is gonna be a theme of, this podcast. I've got a lot to talk to you about, if you're happy to jump in. Sure. Can you can you first of all, explain for for new readers about mister Black Dragon and Alpha Male two point zero?

**Speaker 2:** Well, if there's a lot to it, I'll I'll summarize the best I can. You can interrupt me whenever you want. But starting from scratch, as a man, you have certain certain aspects to your life that make you happy and certain aspects that make you unhappy. Yeah. And you also have a lot of aspects that make you happy now but unhappy later. Mhmm. And most of the societal models in terms of making money, in terms of being with women, in terms of relationships with women, things like that are built around that second model where you're happy now, you're happy for a while, and then later you're unhappy. And that's supposed to be normal, and that's supposed to be what's good for society, etcetera, etcetera. And so the models that I talk about and I really focus on in in terms of all my writing, I focus on two areas, entrepreneurship and income, business, and then relationships with women. Yep. The third pillar, which I don't talk about, would be fitness, which is as important as as those first two. It's just I have no expertise in that area. Mhmm. So in terms of relationships and income, the models I focus on are models that make a man happy now and happy later. So they make you happy today, and five years ago, they make you happy, and ten years ago, you're still happy, or ten years later. Fifteen years later, you're still happy, on and on and on and on, instead of this up and down and up and down stuff that most men hit in life. Yep. That's kind of the bottom line for everything I talk about. What what made me sit up and say, bingo, this guy's got it, was when you

**Speaker 1:** discuss about unrealistic expectations. That obviously the average Joe has, but surprisingly pickup guys have, a lot of guys who know the theory, they're still living in a in this idealistic, dream of you know, the purity fantasy, meeting the one, doing a bit of gain, but then settling down with the one. And surprise, surprise five years later they're back to square one, if not worse. So you accept like I do that a different model is needed and you Badly need. Badly need. Badly needed, yes. And on your blog, you go through the different types of non monogamy. But you're following a slightly different life scheme, a life choice than I am in that you hold on to your girls in a non monogamous way. Yes. Can you can you talk about your preferred form of non monogamy?

**Speaker 2:** Because this confuses a lot of guys are thinking, is he talking about polygamy? Has he got a hard read? Sure. So, let's get some definitions down first because you're right, this gets complicated and the the best way I know of to uncomplicate things is to put things in little categories. So the first category if you picture three levels, first category is FB, which stands for friend with benefits or fuck, buddy, and that's a friend you're having sex with. She's your friend, but that's it. You have sex. There's no dating. There's no cuddling after sex. There's no spending the night. There's no long talks. There's no looking into her eyes. Things like that. You're not going out out on dates. It's just a friend with benefits of sex and your friend, and that's it. Yep. That's the first level. The next level is MLTR, which is my definition or my variation of polyamory, which is you have you're dating multiple women. They can date multiple men. You don't have a girlfriend, but you do have feelings for this person or more than one person. Yes. Whereas an FB, you don't have feelings. You just she's your friend. Mhmm. And then the final level is OLTR, and that's actually your girlfriend or your wife who you've made commitments to, you're pair bonded to. You're allowed to get a little on the side provided you follow the ground rules of the relationship, and those people must only be FBs to not threaten so in other words, OLTR is emotional exclusivity. And when the difference between we were talking earlier about the difference between polyamory and polygamy. Polygamy would be when one guy has multiple girlfriends or wives, and they're not allowed to sleep with anybody else. Yeah. But he can. Yeah. And that's that's kind of the alpha male fantasy. That's, you know, that's most men's fantasy. There's a lot of biology tied up into that. But that's not an option in the Western world outside of some very weird cults in Utah. So pursuing something like that is not a long term solution. Western women unless you're talking about something very unusual, western women are not gonna tolerate you having other women, but they can't have other guys for a long period of time. You might be able to get that get away with that for maybe a year or two Yes. At at best, and you're gonna have a lot of drama while you do it. But that's not, again, my that's not my definition of happy now and unhappy later happy now and happy later. Yes.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. So your your preferred, your preferred approach is the latter, is the the final stage where you're having a girlfriend, an emotional monopoly?

**Speaker 2:** That's my ultimate objective and always has been. I've done something like that once before, But, yes, that's my ultimate objective. But if that doesn't happen, that's fine with me. FBs and MLTRs are great. Yeah. And I've done that for the last ten ten years or so. Okay. And that's fine. I like all three of those models. And I should point out, guys are thinking how old you are. You're you're in your early forties. Yeah? Yeah. I I just turned 44 last month. 44. So this is good. Guys are sitting up. Yeah. I've been doing this since I was 35 ish. I was divorced when I was 35. Is that right? 35, 36, something like that. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And you have kids? Yes. I have two kids. They're they're grown now. My youngest is 18.

**Speaker 1:** This is great. This is there's a there's a niche, think, a growing niche where men have these questions that icon answer, know, stuff about a longer marriage or the kids or getting into your forties and games. So stop emailing me, Caleb. Read the black dragon blog because This is this is great stuff. So we're on the same side of the spectrum. I'm just hitting the the FB's because I guess because of my travel lifestyle. Mhmm. You're by choice in the MLTRs. Okay, the million dollar question. I already know some daygamers are thinking about. They're thinking, okay, I get that girl, we have a medium long term relationship, I'm sleeping with girls, she's sleeping with guys. Isn't it the fact, isn't it the truth that she will eventually get clingy or there will be some drama, She'll have that nesting instinct. How do you deal with a girl getting too close?

**Speaker 2:** Well, a few things. First, I'm gonna go back to the definitions. With an FB, if a woman is strictly an FB, that will never happen. If you are congruent to her in terms of being we're friends, and that's it. We're not going out on dates. We're not doing any of that romantic y stuff. That, what you just described, will never happen. What she'll do instead as an FB is after six months, a year, year and a half, whatever, depends on the woman, depends on the age of the woman, depends on lot of factors, She'll just go away. Yeah. And they drop off. They drop off. Now in in my scenario, ninety four percent of FBs and MLTRs that go away eventually come back because of the way I structure things. So when a woman goes away like this and it's I call it LSNFTY, l s n f t f t, I think. One of my stupid acronyms. But, anyway, it's where a woman goes away to get a boyfriend because she doesn't have that monogamy feeling that she craves as a woman or particularly as a younger woman or what have you. Yes. So she goes away. She gets a boyfriend. And 94% of the time, at least the way I do it and in my experience, the guy ends up being a beta male or an overbearing alpha male, and she can't for a while, she likes it. For a while, she loves it. And then she can't stand it. She breaks up, and she comes back. I call it the boomerang. Boomerang. Yeah. That's another common term. That's probably a better term. I've heard that term as well. Yeah. That's probably a better term than mine. Listeners should, look at,

**Speaker 1:** Caleb's glossary. I love how compartmentalized. You are very,

**Speaker 2:** masculine in your definitions and acronyms. I love it. Yeah. And a lot of arguments in this area with PUAs and manuscript guys too is that the the definitions are different, and you you have two guys arguing over something, and it's really a difference in definitions. They actually agree. Yes. But because they haven't come to a common set of definitions, they're arguing about it. So I try to avoid that by being very specific about the definitions that I use. That's why I have a glossary there. Right. But, anyway, to answer your question, so if you have an MLTR, you're right. Often, that'll happen because there's some feelings and there's some emotions and there's there's some needs. And so two things. One is, eventually, they'll do the same thing. They will boomerang also. Now it takes longer for that to happen Mhmm. Because unlike with an FB, you're giving the MLTR the emotional component that most women require. Yes. So an FB might be six months. MLTR might be two years, three years before she does that for the first time. And, again, if you do it correctly, ninety four percent will come back. So whenever a woman leaves me like this, I'm never upset because I know I usually I didn't think this. I think, alright. Well, I'll see you in about a year and a half. Yeah. Because that's usually about the average.

**Speaker 1:** It's the

**Speaker 2:** alpha widow in her, really, isn't it? If she's listed your lifestyle and what you're giving to her, then it's very yeah. It's tempting, very tempting to come back. Right. Now not all of them. Lot of them stay for a long time or a lot of them go away. When they go away, it's only a few weeks and they come back. Mhmm. But you have to stay consistent. I have a set of relationship rules when it's an FB or MLTR that ensure that, a, she stays a long time, b, she return her odds of returning are very high Yeah. And, c, the amount of drama that you experience from her is very low. Mhmm. And I could go through them if you want. There's about six or seven things that you do or not do to make sure that those things happen. Guys are on the edge of their seats or wherever they're sitting listening to this. Alright. So the first one is there's no particular order. They're all important. The first one is you only see them once a week. Yep. Four You start seeing a woman more than once a week, she's gonna start to really turn on those boyfriend desires and boyfriend vibes. And even if you act perfectly during those times when you're together Yep. It's just something biological, and I've had a lot of guys test this. I've tested this. As soon as you go to twice a week, all of a sudden, you have an upswing and drama and beta and problems like that. Yeah. So you just see her once a week. Now guys ask, well, what if I really like her? I wanna spend more time with her. Well, you can increase the amount of time you spend with her that once a week walk. So instead of seeing her for four hours on a Wednesday, she could spend the night Wednesday night and and be with you, you know, Thursday morning or whatever or spend the weekend with you or what have you as long as you don't see her again for the following week. Just quick just quickly on that point. I I I strictly don't let fuck buddies sleep over. Correct. You do not sleep over with fuck buddies ever. Yeah. It's You're absolutely right. That's one of the fuck buddy rules. Correct. You cannot let it or else you're being incongruent. Yep. And you're confusing her. You're gonna get drama, and it's gonna be your fault. Yep. Yep. A lot of guys violate that. Yeah. They say, well, it's 02:00 in the morning. The trains have stopped running. Well, logistics, pal, you should have figured that out before she came over. You should know when the train stopped running. You need have all that planned out when an FB comes over to your place or what have you. Yep. Right. So that's the first rule is once a week. That's FBs or MLTRs. The FB rule only would be no spending the night, no boyfriend type stuff. You're right. The next rule is to make her come to orgasm every time you have Be good. There's a percentage of women who can't do that, but you do your best you can with those. Yep. Yep. And if you do that every time, if she links up I think a lot of this is biological and even a little NLP stuff. If she links up in her head, every time I see him, I come. It's Pavlovian, isn't it? It's the ringing It is Pavlovian. Ringing itself. Huge difference. Yeah. I that was one of the things when I did this years ago when I first started doing this. It was one of the biggest differences I noticed in making that one change, making sure they come every time. It makes it's it's amazing when you start doing that if you haven't already. It's great because most guys don't do that. I find if you can't if you can't come through,

**Speaker 1:** you and her fucking through intercourse, then I just let her knock one out next to me. One girl watches porn next to me, and I yeah. Take And so she still associates, the climax As with

**Speaker 2:** long as you're physically next to her. So it doesn't matter if you're using fingers, tongue, vibrators, or she does it herself, and but you're there next to her. I think it's the physical closeness when the orgasm occurs. Correct? Right. It doesn't matter how it happens. Have do whatever you want. Yeah. Because most women can't cum vaginally through sex. Yeah. Some can, and they're very happy girls, but most can't. Most, you gotta do something. Okay. Or like you said, let her do something. Yep. Right. That's the next one is no over the top boyfriend behaviors. So if you wanna take her out, take her out. But don't take her to a big fancy restaurant and bring her a bunch of flowers and dress up really nice. Don't bring her over and introduce her to your parents and talk about, oh, someday we're gonna live together and isn't this great? Don't text her every day. Oh, I love you. I miss you. You're so wonderful. And, oh, what what are you doing? Or even or even boyfriend stuff, you know, alpha male stuff, like, who are you with? It's 06:00. Where are you right now? That kind of stuff. If you engage in those types of things, you're gonna turn on her boyfriend desires. You can't do any of that stuff. You can still spend time with a woman The critics. In a romantic context without doing those things. Critically, avoid the future projections. You know, when you start making plans about the summer or a festival

**Speaker 1:** Yes. I I just kill that, you know, if it's Yes. If it's open.

**Speaker 2:** But you cannot do that and still do everything else wrong and have the same problem. You cannot because a lot of guys say, well, I never talk about getting married. I never talk about moving in together. Yeah. But you're going out on big fancy dates, and you're meeting your parents, and you're hanging out with her friends, and you're and you're talking to her three, four times a week and all that stuff. It it does the same thing. Yeah. And big public displays of affection. Yep. Right. And that's the next rule is contact. The contact between those once a week dates should be minimal. And, ideally, she should be contacting you more than you're contacting her. Mhmm. A lot of guys contact women every day, even if it's a text. Some guys even call. A lot of guys text every day. Or they allow her to text them, and they have a text conversation every day. And they say, well, I didn't initiate it. Doesn't matter. You're still communicating every day. Yeah. And way back in the olden days, you had even Pagan, David DeAngelo. And one of the one of those quotes, which was very accurate, was give her the gift of missing you. Yeah. Very nice. Huge.

**Speaker 1:** We we call that the vacuum in daygame. You know? Okay. Perfect. Flip the script, so she is tracing you. Yep. Correct.

**Speaker 2:** And she and you don't have the constant contact that you would have with a boyfriend? No. Because guys do all this boyfriend y stuff, and then that's kind of the theme here. Guys do all this boyfriend y stuff, but they say she's not my girlfriend. I'm not her boyfriend. Well, that doesn't matter, dude. You're acting like a boyfriend. Yeah. Because they're addicted to affection,

**Speaker 1:** you know, or they're they're getting the affection from one source. But, anyway, we can talk about that in in in Right. Right. And

**Speaker 2:** then the final rule is to not discuss the relationship in any way for at least three months, preferably five plus months. No relationship discussions. Even if she brings it up, you're not gonna have that talk right now. It's too soon. Yep. You put it off. A lot of guys again, even guys with PUA experience who who know what they're doing. They find a girl they like, and within a week or two, they're like, okay. So I think we shouldn't see other people, I and think we should and they're starting this all this relationship stuff. Well, of course, you're gonna get prom if you do that. That's the way it works. A funny observation is that I think PUAs,

**Speaker 1:** myself included, we have a tendency to fall quicker, to kind of grab girls quicker because because what we lack is affection, especially if you just play the first model of pump and dump, you know, random far sex. When I've seen PUAs fall for affection, they really fall for affection. Yes. They get oneitis really hard and really fast. And look, you're you're right about that. God bless heaven pagan, married, you know. We can we can reel off

**Speaker 2:** the And it's not just yeah. We could I could rattle off a real list right now just as him. You're right. They fall hard. And one is, I think you're right, because they're not giving themselves that level of affection. If you have at least one or two MLTRs in your life at all times, you're getting all that affection. You're fine. This is the critical point.

**Speaker 1:** For me, the takeaway from your blog is that the sure you're gonna get feelings and feelings are part of life, know, this this bonding, this need for female affection and energy and this is this is a critical part of happiness in a man's life. Yeah. But the difference between you and Evan Pagan, you could say, or the average guy who who really falls for girlfriend is, I'm guessing because you have options, because you are not needy, because you're not in scarcity. And because you're recognizing what's happening, you're not falling head first down a a black hole coming out two years later crying, are you? Correct.

**Speaker 2:** And I make sure that I'm getting the affection that I need. I I'm not one of these guys who walk around and say, Well, if you're a tough guy, never need affection. No, we're human beings. You can be the most alpha, badass badass guy in the world, and you still need that affection. If you're gonna walk around not getting that affection for long periods of time, you're likely in for a crash later down the road. I talk about that when I talk about guys my age or older who only sleep with escorts and hookers or only hook up with Guys 40 who are only hooking up, they're never having any relationships. Because I hate women, and women are too much work. That's fine. And philosophically, I understand. But the problem is you're a human being, and you're gonna need this. Yep. And you're gonna if you don't get this, you're either gonna self implode or, like you said, you're gonna get oneitis for someone and do all the wrong things. Yeah. I see it as a as a ticking time bomb, really. It is. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And then you get monogamous, which is a scarcity model. Yep. So the fact that you get monogamous actually exacerbates this and makes it even worse. Yeah. Or guys go through cycles

**Speaker 1:** of, you know, banging loads of kind of angry lays, and then falling hard, and then coming out of it, and it and it goes round and round and round. And the pickup guys are very very good at cold approach, pickup at daygame, massively fall into this problem, because they've never really shaken off the purity fantasy or the myth of the one.

**Speaker 2:** Like, in my book, The Unshamed Man, I talk about that exactly. There's a cycle that the PUA or the alpha male, the typical alpha male goes through. It's it's exactly that. Banging a bunch of girls. Oh, this is awesome. I love being single. Oops. I'm in love with someone now. Oneitis. Monogamy, monogamy, drama, drama, problems, problems. Breakup or divorce. I hate women again. The manosphere is right. I'm gonna go bang chicks again. And he just does it again over and over and over again. And, again, that's a happy now, unhappy later model. Yep. Yep. And this is what you're meaning by alpha male two point zero, not one point zero. Yeah? Right. Right. So what I just described is the classic alpha male one point o model. Yep. That's that's what alpha males do. They play, and then they get excited, and they adopt the incorrect model, and it blows up in their face. The alpha two point o sits down and says, what will make me happy not just now, but in the long term? Yeah. And let's assume those models. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** This this is where I sat up when I was reading your blog. I think when I realized that you are in your forties and you are understanding that there's this long term mission. So you've got your goals and most pickup goals, you know, banging certain girls, visiting certain countries, getting to a certain level with game. But your blog has very much got an underlying mission. Yeah? A life mission to be positive, to be happy, to be, I think you say, to be abundant.

**Speaker 2:** Yes.

**Speaker 1:** And this is stuff that, you know, people don't talk about because, most pickup guys are in their twenties.

**Speaker 2:** Right. And the problem with goals, this is kind of strange to say, but it's true, the problem with goals is that you hit them, and then what? Yep. That's either either you don't hit them and get depressed because you're setting your goal setting skills are all off because you're setting goals that are too high or not congruent to your personality as a man. Or you set the correct goals, and then you hit them. And then what? So you're gonna be a PUA in your twenties, and you're gonna bang a bunch of chicks. And my goal is you get these guys, these younger guys all the time. My goal is to fuck a 100 girls. Okay. Alright. I mean, I never had that goal, but alright. That's the goal you have. You bang a 100 girls, then what? You're gonna sit around and go, let's see. Or worse, in my experience, and I don't know if you can relate to this or not with the guys you talk to, you get you you have these guys who bang all these girls, and then they sit around and go, well, is this all life is about? What I mean, I don't I feel lonely, and I don't have any purpose, and I have no meaning. And I just feel like a piece of meat. You know? And then, of course, you're gonna go right into monogamy and on one it is and all those other problems again because you didn't have something beyond the goal. You just had the goal. At the end of the goal, there's a period at the end of the sentence, and there's nothing beyond it. Yeah. Which is what happened to me, but not with women, but with my financial life. I had a bunch of goals in my twenties. And by the time I was about 27, 28, I hit them all, All the lifestyle goals I had, getting married and having a hot blonde wife and two kids and a big house and income, and I did all that. And then I sat around going, okay. Now what? And I but I was not depressed, but close to it for many years because I had nothing beyond the goal. Yep.

**Speaker 1:** Yep. Have you, have you heard of a chap called sixty years of challenge? Of course. Good old 60. I led Spoken with him. He's a great guy. Yeah. Oh, great. I see him as this mythical character that doesn't exist. He's he's very elusive. But I

**Speaker 2:** my listen He was the one guy on the old forums that had higher rankings than I did.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. He speaks the truth. And I always tell guys to read the one on relationships. I think it's called relationship roulette. That was the first time I he made the distinction for me between guys not really wanting sex, guys really want Relationship roulette? Action. I think it's I think it's his little spiel on relationships. Yeah. And he's saying what you're saying, which is to build this ecosystem of affection Yeah. From male friends, from your mother, from your sister, from girls that you're yeah, like you, girls that you're sleeping with. And because if it's a time bomb, if you don't have that affection, then you're either gonna go down the black hole of the manosphere or or you're gonna forever be somehow tied to the one. So if there's one thing that guys should take from this podcast and and your blog, I think it's that that you have to build an ecosystem for happiness

**Speaker 2:** and for your for your safety. Right. And what's fascinating is that if you go down the rabbit hole, the manosphere, in terms of this purity fantasy that is that will never work. I've talked about how men pursue the unicorn woman. If you go down this road, it makes it worse. You're actually gonna get more angry. Yes. Which is my challenge with the Manosphere and why it's very difficult for me these days to read Manosphere blogs, even though I'm in it, is because you have these guys who are not only angry but continuing to get more and more and more angry. Yeah. Because they're they're not getting any of the solutions they want. These women should be pure, and they're not. Damn it. That makes me angry. You know, as time goes on, the whole world is moving from the right to the left anyway. So these trends are all against that purity fantasy. That doesn't mean you can't have the semblance of what you want. That doesn't mean you can't be married. It's a different flavor of marriage, but it doesn't mean can't pair bond all those things. You can't it's not that you can't have those things. It's that you have to be a little teeny bit flexible in terms of that model if you wanna be long term happy. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Can we talk about your belief in them? I read that you say you I agree exactly that you should focus on yourself rather than trying to change the world around you. My argument with the manosphere is that they believe there's a conspiracy, they rage against it. It's very much men versus women. And you say, well, look, you sort yourself out, you sort your needs out, you set up this ecosystem, you know, rather than raging. Because as you said, raging is is it's just a downward trajectory, isn't it? Correct. And a few things. This gets complicated, but, again, I'll summarize. It's that when

**Speaker 2:** you're on an airplane and they give you that speech about the safety and when the oxygen mask comes down, what do they tell you to do? They say if there's a child next to you, put on your oxygen mask first, then help other people. Yeah. So even if your goal in life is to save the world, and that is not my goal. But if if that is your goal, my goal is to change men or fundamentally change women or change society or save society. If that's your goal, you still wanna get your shit together first. Yep. And most of the people I know on all sides of the political spectrum, not just the manosphere, but I live in a part of the world where there are a lot of left wingers and a lot of progressives, and they do the same thing too. They try to change the world when their lives are completely fucked up. Yeah. Either they they make no money or they make under 20,000 a year, they can barely support themselves and make a living, or they make they make decent money, but they they don't know how to get laid, and they can't get laid. They haven't had sex in years, so they're depressed and pissed off, or they're severely overweight and have health problems. They have all these huge challenges, and they're trying to save the world. And so my point is if you really wanna save the world and, again, I agree with you. I don't I there's so many reasons why that's not a good goal to have. But if you disagree with me, and most human beings do, I think, I think you and I are in minority on this. Yep. But if that's your goal is to save the world, sit down and get your life together first. Yep. And, again, those three if you're a guy, those three pillars, your money, your women and and your relationship life, and your physical fitness. Get those things in order first. And if once you get those things from a scale of one to 10, they're all about an eight or so, and you still wanna save the world, go for it. And plus, you'll be in a better position to do so anyway. But I I I would add to that that when you are achieving that level in either of the in any of the three or all of the three, you lead by example anyway. People people notice and people come to you.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. That's been my experience with gaming. Know, when I'm out on the street daygaming, a guy will come to me. I used to believe I had to preach, and this is very much a management thing. Know, you have to preach, you have to converge. Right. But if you're if you're the solid guy, you're gonna stand out pretty quickly. And you lead or you have led a massively traveling lifestyle.

**Speaker 2:** You've you're a minimalist. I'm guessing you're Yeah. More minimalist as I can. Yeah. And and the older I get, the more minimal I can't say the word. Minimalist. More minimalist I become. Yeah. Yeah, it's easier. For example, I donate money to charity every month, and there's no way I could do that back when I was 19 years old or 18 years old, making whatever I was making back then, twenty two thousand. Back when I was poor, I couldn't help the world. I mean, I guess I could, but, boy, it was a pain in the ass. When your life is together, not only are you you feel better about yourself, but it's easier to accomplish those kinds of bigger goals, external goals, if you want them because you have all your shit together. Yeah. You're going about it in the wrong order. If your life is screwed up and you're angry and you're furious and you're trying to save the world, that that no. Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** And you you live it. You walk the walk. You don't just talk the talk. I mean, you've traveled across the globe and you from from your blog, you clearly have interests other than banging hot girls. We all like banging hot girls, but you also blog about finances and you blog about remote living and passive income. Yeah. And is that is that what you're gonna be you're carry on doing that in the future? Are you looking to go to a different country, or are you are you gonna hit the road once more?

**Speaker 2:** So what I do now is I spend I try to spend my my schedule's been a little busy lately, but I try to spend two months out of the country now. So I I try to be you know, early in the year, I take a month and go to Asia, and then later in the year, go to Europe or something like that. In October of this year, I'll be in London and Italy and a few other places in Europe. Yep. And and then early next year, be in Asia, probably Asia again, and and Australia. But my current plan is to do that, be gone twice a year at least for a long trip outside of the country for about ten years. And then my current plan is around 2025 to move my home base outside of The United States to some other country, either in South America or Asia as my current plan. And the reason I'm able to do this, and this was my plan all along for many years, is to develop a location independent income where I have income regardless of where I am or what my hours are in terms of where I am in the world. Yes. And I To me, it's, like, fit one of the bottom line requirements of when I talk about Alpha Male two point o lifestyle, the ability to go anywhere you want, do anything you want, but still make money regardless of where you are or what hours you choose to work. Yes. I like the ethic, you know, self sustaining,

**Speaker 1:** as we just said, focusing on yourself, getting all that stuff sorted, and then and then preaching the good news.

**Speaker 2:** Right. Right. Or even things like if you wanna pair bond and get married or settle down or else get all of that of that stuff done first. Yeah. Yeah. Which is another mistake I made. I got married as a young guy when I was 25. I had some stuff taken care of, not all my stuff. So I I got married too soon. And not too soon as in before all of the stuff was accomplished, before all the structure was laid in and all the skills were laid in.

**Speaker 1:** Well, we're coming up to half an hour, and, this is it's just an infinite, infinite topics for discussion here. So, guys can go to your blog. That is correct. Blackdragonblog.com.

**Speaker 2:** Yes. Blackdragonblog.com. And then my other blog is Caleb Jones, c a l e b, calebjonesblog.com. And, in terms of my dating relationship products, they're at Black Dragon blog too, but you can also go to blackdragonsystem.com. Yep. And then my primary book is at alphamalebook.com.

**Speaker 1:** Is the alpha male book where they should start if they really wanna know more about non monogamy, more than just, one night stones?

**Speaker 2:** Yeah. It that that book covers your whole life in terms of your lifestyle and your income and your relationship life, so about a fourth of the book is devoted to that. If you want an overview of all the stuff I'm talking about, that's the best thing to do, is get the Unchained Man book. If you want specific techniques on polyamory or open relationships or things like that, you would go to blackdragonsystem.com or blackdragonblog.com.

**Speaker 1:** There's I have several ebooks on that topic. And just mining your blog. I mean, a guy should sit there with a whiskey in his hand and, yeah, go go through it because everything we've discussed,

**Speaker 2:** you've got article upon article upon article of of gold. And it's Yeah. I've got a lot of guys who email me saying, I I've read I went to your entire archive. I spent the whole weekend reading and stuff. Like, man, that's that's great. Yeah. It's it's it's a voice in the wilderness. It's refreshing because

**Speaker 1:** you're a man of action, but it's you're not you're not you're

**Speaker 2:** not wading in misery. You know? The And I try to write from that standpoint. I try to write from I'm a happy guy living a happy life, and you should be happy too. That doesn't mean that sometimes every once in while, I have an article that is more manosphere ish in terms of the problems that we have with women or the problems we have with the legalities of marriage and things. Every once in while, I will write an article about that because when the manosphere guys are stating facts about, you know, whatever, child support or alimony or big government, they're they're technically correct. So I don't disagree with them on the technical facts of these things. Where I disagree is you have these facts, you have these obstacles, but you can still design a life where you can have whatever you want and be very happy in spite of these facts. You just have to be a little flexible and calm down a little bit. I say use those use those facts as loopholes. I mean, do do something with them because because a lot of those facts,

**Speaker 1:** assist in the lifestyle that you and I lead. Yes. Anyway, I'll leave it there, mister Black Dragon. Thank you, Caleb. You bet. And let's do it again sometime.

**Speaker 2:** We shall. Let's do it.